How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump • Hacker News Board

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#111

Post by aninhumer » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 12:03 PM UTC

dingaling wrote: post #29

s_kilk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely. If you look at the age breakdown of the vote, millenials and other assorted youngsters voted overwhelmingly for "Remain", while the older cohort voted for "Leave".

> If you look at the age breakdown of the vote That's not the breakdown of the vote but of exit polls and other opt-in polling such as YouGov surveys. Both of which are biased towards those (1) likely to contribute and (2) not concerned about sharing how they voted. The actual demographic composition of the vote is unknown, it could be determined ( all UK ballot papers are linked to their voter ) but that would be un…

>all UK ballot papers are linked to their voter

No they're not. The ballot papers themselves are indistinguishable, and they are rejected during counting if people include any identifying marks.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#112

Post by CM30 » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 12:13 PM UTC

dingaling wrote: post #59

majewsky wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (2) not concerned about sharing how they voted Are exit polls not anonymized in the UK? At the last federal election in Germany, I was asked to contribute in an exit poll, and they had their own voting booth and urn set up for that purpose next to the actual voting room. The ballot was mostly identical, except for additional checkboxes for age group and gender, which they wanted to break down in their analyses. So…

The exit poll for the EU referendum at my local voting station was conducted by a man with a tablet computer! I didn't stop to investigate the process, unfortunately.

Haven't ever seen an exit poll round here. No one was trying to gage who voted for what near any of these polling stations.

Guess it's more common in some areas than others.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#113

Post by gambiting » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 12:13 PM UTC

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #69

objectivistbrit wrote: post #47

I'm pro-economic liberty and voted for Brexit. Every analysis like this has tunnel vision: yes, the free trade opened up by the EU brought prosperity to an entire continent. Had we been voting for the 1970s era EEC, I'd have gladly voted Remain. But in 40 years the EEC has evolved into the EU, with a constitution, a parliament, a president, a national anthem, a flag, supreme law-making powers and a currency. Maybe th…

> The EU is a world-historical experiment in social democracy - free markets + state regulation + the welfare state. The consensus is that this system represents the current pinnacle of political evolution. Where does the EU provide the means for a welfare state? Do jobless people get money from the EU? Any country can handle its own version of welfare state. There is no mandate from the EU. The perception is usually…

It's the "quantum immigrant" problem - where simultaneously immigrants steal all jobs and at the same time sit at home and claim all the benefits.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#114

Post by icebraining » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 12:19 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #101

pyrale wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And anyway, there's nothing wrong with a certain amount of greediness in a capitalist system, this is what drives innovation and efficiency. I wonder how many years will pass before people realize this mantra is an article of faith.

We're currently at 240 years, so I wouldn't hold my breath. > It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages. http://geolib.com/smith.adam/won1-02.html

Greediness is not the same as simply regarding one's interest, though the line is subjective.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#115

Post by mseebach » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 12:25 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #114

mseebach wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're currently at 240 years, so I wouldn't hold my breath. > It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages. http://geolib.com/smith.adam/won1-02.html

Greediness is not the same as simply regarding one's interest, though the line is subjective.

The greed that people talk about when they say that greed is good (by way of Wall Street, the 1987 movie) is, though.

Also, a great many uses of the word in (lazy) criticism of markets and capitalism is that too.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#116

Post by icebraining » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 12:37 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #71

majewsky wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Elite institutions - think of banking or tech - tend to be truly global enterprises, open to anyone who can demonstrate the requisite ability. So you're saying that people of color and women just aren't fit to rule the world? The ethnic and gender distribution among elite managers etc. is certainly not representative.

The top 5 tech companies according to a quick Google search -> fortune article are apple, HP, IBM, Amazon and Microsoft. 2 CEOs are people of color (bezos and nacelle) one is gay and one a woman. It's true that Asians are overrepresented in tech. I believe this is, in fact, because more Asians are fit for the job. Do you disagree? Why do you think Asians are overrepresented, and what do you think should be done about…

Bezos is a person of color?

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#117

Post by pyrale » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 12:40 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #115

icebraining wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greediness is not the same as simply regarding one's interest, though the line is subjective.

The greed that people talk about when they say that greed is good (by way of Wall Street, the 1987 movie) is, though. Also, a great many uses of the word in (lazy) criticism of markets and capitalism is that too.

> The greed that people talk about when they say that greed is good (by way of Wall Street, the 1987 movie) is, though.

Thing is, you can't reduce the pursuit of self interest to accumulating wealth. Therefore, even if we accept the definition of greed as merely pursuing wealth, we misunderstand Smith's quote and fail to acknowledge many sources of creativity. By disproportionately rewarding greed and not other work incentives, we build a society for the few that are driven by it, at the expense of most, and ultimately, we cannot thrive.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#118

Post by madaxe_again » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 12:49 PM UTC

SeanDav wrote: post #98

madaxe_again wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the nature of our democracy, however. One could argue that one has a duty to educate, but you cannot force knowledge and reason upon people who do not wish it. I saw much of the same on the brexit vote - one that stood out was someone i'd always thought was an intelligent man (he used to run a substantial investment bank), who I found screaming, froth-flecked, in my face about how I was a traitor for not voti…

You know, I have heard this argument used a few times. If you are intelligent, you voted to remain, if you are not intelligent, you voted to leave. So blame lack of intelligence on not getting a vote you wanted, because people that disagree with you must not be intelligent - right?

I'm not sure where you get that from. The leave arguments were emotional, the remain arguments were rational. Emotional arguments always win.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#119

Post by return0 » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 12:50 PM UTC

dageshi wrote: post #86

return0 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound as if the UK was not in the EU all these years. You had bargaining and Veto powers to steer the EU to your direction, but i can't remember when you did so. Probably that's the reason why most EU citizens are indifferently watching you leave.

I believe the UK tried very hard to avoid the creation of the euro but when it became apparant that it was going to happen anyway it got itself an opt out. I think after that the UK largely disengaged because the common view was the currency couldn't succeed without a much higher level of political integration than was being proposed at the time and the British public simply wasn't interested. So I think you're incor…

Yep , but that was 20+ years ago (plus apparently the UK succeeded in steering the EU as separate from the eurozone; that's why it's not rallying countries NOT to join the euro ). The Brexit debate was not really about euro, however, it was all about immigration.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#120

Post by return0 » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 12:54 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #91

return0 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are a way of saying "let's watch the elite's world and system collapse on itself" I don't think people want to replace the elites with void. Maybe that's the case for nihilistic, fringe far-right or far-left parties. But when majorities or near majorities are voting for Trump or Brexit, they want to replace the elites with something else `. It's funny to watch the elites suddenly renouncing democracy because she st…

Replacing the "elite" with an underspecified, possibly unachievable "something else" is begging for a void. Come on, we're software engineers; we know how crazy it is to turn off a working system without having a viable plan for its replacement.

> underspecified, possibly unachievable "something else"

I think it's pretty well outlined what is that "something else". The implementation is not there (obviously), but the API exists, for example anti-immigration, [edit]pro-protectionism etc. Most people dismiss it as non-existent though, due to liberal reflexes.