Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years • Hacker News Board

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#111

Post by mech4bg » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:33 AM UTC

tlrobinson wrote: post #109

Possibly stupid question: why didn't some enterprising person figure out how to produce CD-Rs with the copy protection wobble track? Is the market too small vs the cost of required equipment? Would it have been illegal?

I found this when looking for more info on the "wobble": http://assemblergames.com/l/threads/saturn-copy-protection-a...

"I hope this lays the matter to rest, and prevents anyone from wasting more time on it (like my day burning useless discs). I'm sure someone will wave their hands around and say that custom burner firmware could do the job, but good luck finding a burner with a programmable DSP in the pregroove tracking loop and managing to modify it to do the job."

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#112

Post by tlrobinson » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:39 AM UTC

voltagex_ wrote: post #37

I'm so so glad he mentions archiving in this video - I don't think enough thought has been given to the impact of DRM on museum collections in 10-50 years.

Maybe a condition of copyright should be that you submit the unrestricted media to Library of Congress, and it gets released upon expiration of copyright.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#113

Post by Gracana » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:39 AM UTC

majke wrote: post #2

This is amazing. The video avoids too technical language, and basically explains the whole process of reverse engineering. I think this is the best explanation of reverse engineering I've seen in a long time.

Micah Scott's toastermelt videos are another great example of reverse engineering workflow/techniques. More technical and detailed but still very accessible.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#114

Post by tlrobinson » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:41 AM UTC

orblivion wrote: post #108

How is the Saturn's protection so much more effective than more modern systems?

I'm guessing it was state of the art at the time it was released, but wouldn't hold up nearly as well in a mass market console these days.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#115

Post by JoshTriplett » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:51 AM UTC

MichaelApproved wrote: post #74

christoph wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case it helps, there is actually a very low tech solution to booting copied games on Saturn hardware that works with the vast majority of games released (especially expensive/rare/hard to find games like the Treasure releases). Tape/wedge the drive lid sensor down, power up with a real game in (you don't need to close the lid as the sensor believes the lid is always shut) and allow it do the initial copy protectio…

Why not just cut the wobble edge of a real CD off and attach it to a burned CD? Maybe you can shave the back of the shimmed wobble edge down, so that it won't stick out as much on the burned CD. This shimmed wobble can be your key for all the burned CDs you have. Maybe double sided tape can keep the wobble shim attached to your burned CD while still allowing it to be removable for other CDs. I've never had a Saturn,…

> I've never had a Saturn, so I don't know what this wobble edge looks like in person. Am I missing something?

The video shows it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOyfZex7B3E#t=2m13s

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#116

Post by orblivion » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:52 AM UTC

tlrobinson wrote: post #114

orblivion wrote: post #108

How is the Saturn's protection so much more effective than more modern systems?

I'm guessing it was state of the art at the time it was released, but wouldn't hold up nearly as well in a mass market console these days.

Then why did it take 20 years?

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#117

Post by JoshTriplett » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 4:53 AM UTC

tlrobinson wrote: post #112

voltagex_ wrote: post #37

I'm so so glad he mentions archiving in this video - I don't think enough thought has been given to the impact of DRM on museum collections in 10-50 years.

Maybe a condition of copyright should be that you submit the unrestricted media to Library of Congress, and it gets released upon expiration of copyright.

Nobody would test that version, so it wouldn't work.

Submission of complete source code, on the other hand, could help.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#118

Post by Neeek » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 5:27 AM UTC

simplemath wrote: post #33

slg wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this being downvoted? I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask for a TLDR on a 30 minute video. Anyway, the basic story is that the Saturn had copy protection in the form of physical marks on the copy protected CDs. This puts a huge barrier to entry on homebrew and the like, so a guy going by Dr Abrasive tried to reverse engineer a way around that. He first looked into a way of disabling the copy protection o…

the most impressive part, to me, was how thoroughly he reverse engineered what looks to be a crazy complicated CPU architecture - the Saturn has four of them. Also, I love that his original motivation was to use the sound processor for mixing chiptune, and basically opening up the entire system at metal level is a happy by product. ALSO, the fact that he decided that his first working prototype was too hands on and f…

Wasn't it only one of those CPU's though? He mentioned there is a CPU dedicated to disk operation and that's the one no one had been able to get a ROM dump of, which in turn enabled all the other stuff? Not trying to downplay his achievement or anything, I'm new to all this but it's easy to see that this is some truly amazing work.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#119

Post by city41 » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 5:32 AM UTC

donatj wrote: post #5

I can't wait for him to start selling these! I would buy one in a hot minute. My Saturn is collecting dust and there are so many games I just can't get my hands on for my Saturn, and emulation in my experience hardly works. It's way too weird a machine.

You can already buy the Saturn Rhea. It is pretty much the same thing except SD based and it replaces the CD drive. I have one and absolutely love it. It's honestly the best retro gaming purchase I have made in a very long time.

Re: Sega Saturn CD Cracked after 20 Years

#120

Post by city41 » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 5:32 AM UTC

seanc722 wrote: post #97

Grazester wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is already an SD card drive for the Saturn. https://gdemu.wordpress.com/ To achieve this did not require fully reverse engineering the cdrom controller but it is great someone did though.

Indeed! There are mod chips, etc. He ended up aiming for something that didn't require ripping it open and soldering.

The Rhea/Phoebe require no soldering. Just pop out the CD drive, pop in the Rhea. Very simple.