No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down • Hacker News Board

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#111

Post by sandworm101 » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

jostylr wrote: post #108

sandworm101 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you deal with the students who outsmart teachers? A lack of rule sets would seem an open field for students to manipulate the adults in the room. One of my friend's daughters is vicious at this. At 14, for a "career and personal planning" project, she stated career her goal as "porn star" and somehow wrangled a skype interview with a 19yo "mentor" in the biz. She has no intention on following this path, but lo…

In Sudbury Schools, there are plenty of rules. If a student broke the rules, their would be a jury of their peers and a sentence to follow out. If she wanted to stay at the school, she would accept it all and acclimate. Sometimes it takes a few weeks, sometimes a few months. Someone who ignores our system of justice would be expelled. It happens. It all depends on whether she wants to be in this environment or not. M…

>> Someone who ignores our system of justice would be expelled. It happens.

I hope they don't read Lord of the Flies. I'm not sure that I would want a group of teens, especially peers, to judge me on anything. Didn't Trek TOS also cover this in the episode on the planet without adults?

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#112

Post by brenschluss » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 7:20 PM UTC

jostylr wrote: post #104

ionforce wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if students (or whoever in a power sharing dynamic) are making decisions that are bad for them? How do you veto a bad decision?

I work at Arts&Ideas Sudbury School in Baltimore, 8 years old at this point. I have been with them for two years. There is no veto. There is simply discussing the issue and revisiting it if necessary. While it is always possible that a disastrous decision will be made, anecdotally, it seems to be exceedingly rare. Students want the school to succeed. They want to be safe and respected. When you start from those place…

> I have learned that democracy is not about voting. True democracy is listening and being heard. It is a bit like in Buddhism and how simply witnessing and acknowledging emotions will often lead the way to a good outcome.

I agree with this so strongly - do you have any ways in which you've seen these thoughts or ideas shared or written in some form?

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#113

Post by nine_k » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 7:29 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #91

GuiA wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also worked a fair amount with "alternative" educational structures, albeit in a different country (France). In those kind of pedagogies (mostly Freinet for me), the adults ultimately do have a veto power. However, when you give kids responsibility, something funny happens - you find that they tend to become very reasonable, and you very rarely have to use veto power. More often than not, it's more renegotiation…

How do you deal with the students who outsmart teachers? A lack of rule sets would seem an open field for students to manipulate the adults in the room. One of my friend's daughters is vicious at this. At 14, for a "career and personal planning" project, she stated career her goal as "porn star" and somehow wrangled a skype interview with a 19yo "mentor" in the biz. She has no intention on following this path, but lo…

A good teacher could gainfully discuss the choice. Being a porn star is a short-term career; what are you going to do after 35? It's physically straining and may have health implications. It has image problems: how do you tell your friends, relatives, and kids what's your job about? It requires good physical shape, diets, etc. Is it worth it? If so, how do you pivot? Talking about that with a straight face may be useful for the whole class. (Edit: spelling.)

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#114

Post by lorenzhs » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 7:44 PM UTC

wapapaloobop wrote: post #101

lorenzhs wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandatory schooling is much much older in Germany, see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulpflicht_(Deutschland) (in German). It was part of the Weimarer Verfassung of 1919: http://www.verfassungen.de/de/de19-33/verf19.htm (Art.145). In some parts, mandatory schooling laws were first passed in 1592; Prussia in 1717/1763, Bavaria 1802, Saxony 1835, etc. There's really no need to bring up Hitler in every article that me…

That's interesting. Why was the 1938 law introduced?

Pretty sure Hitler didn't want anyone to get any ideas about resistance or opposition

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#115

Post by sandworm101 » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 7:45 PM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #113

sandworm101 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you deal with the students who outsmart teachers? A lack of rule sets would seem an open field for students to manipulate the adults in the room. One of my friend's daughters is vicious at this. At 14, for a "career and personal planning" project, she stated career her goal as "porn star" and somehow wrangled a skype interview with a 19yo "mentor" in the biz. She has no intention on following this path, but lo…

A good teacher could gainfully discuss the choice. Being a porn star is a short-term career; what are you going to do after 35? It's physically straining and may have health implications. It has image problems: how do you tell your friends, relatives, and kids what's your job about? It requires good physical shape, diets, etc. Is it worth it? If so, how do you pivot? Talking about that with a straight face may be use…

>> Being a porn star is a short-term career;

It depends. There is a range of approaches. The classic approach, of which I think you are speaking, is indeed very short term. Girls are paid per day/shoot/scene and that's all. Other girls own and operate their own websites, retaining copyrights, and can generate a stream of income over a great many years. There are women out there in their late twenties still releasing "new" material shot while they were 18. Many who opt for this approach don't do sex, or even nudity, and so don't suffer any health repercussions. But that takes planning and a degree of time/money investment.

I wouldn't encourage the career, but I would fault any teacher ready to dismiss the industry. If you ask kids what they want to do, you shouldn't be critical of answers that conflict with your personal morality.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#116

Post by socialist_coder » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 7:46 PM UTC

2suave wrote: post #89

The title should read "No grades, no timetable, and no degree". As much as I like the idea behind it it's simply not a feasible concept in today's society and it's competitive environment. In fact, I'd even wager that the pupils of that school will be ridiculed by their fellow peers for attending such a school. Not to mention that admission boards of prestigious universities would never give them the time of the day.…

Eh?

Today, you can learn almost anything on your own from books, youtube videos, online tutorials, etc. The only thing stopping you is perseverance and a curious and exploratory mind. This school teaches you just those things.

Programming fits this to a T. Entrepreneurship as well. Writing, cooking, any type of creative design too. Sure, you want to be a Doctor or a Lawyer you need a degree, but I don't see how students that go to this type of high school would not be able to get into University.

If you are a business owner who wants replaceable cogs for his factory, sure, this type of school is terrible. But if you want people who can adapt, solve problems, stay motivated and think critically, it seems great.

What kind of society are you living in?

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#117

Post by socialist_coder » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 7:49 PM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #14

wapapaloobop wrote: post #7

We school-educated people associate learning with authority and it's hard for us to truly grasp that education takes place most efficiently under conditions of freedom. Repealing Hitler's 1938 law against home education would be an important step for Germany.

IDK. The toughest calls for home-schooling in Germany come from religious extremists, be it Islamists, Jewish orthodox or Twelve Tribes christian fundamentalists. None of those are anti-authority to begin with. Also: Godwin.

Agreed, home schooling on a religious basis should be kept illegal.

I'm American and living in Germany and I would love to be able to home school my children in this Sudbury way.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#118

Post by socialist_coder » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 7:52 PM UTC

pinaceae wrote: post #95

skewart wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing the reason this is getting down-voted is because the article makes it pretty clear that the Berlin school's aim is to _teach_ kids to be motivated and disciplined. It provides a lot of structure along with opportunity cities for more self-directed learning. That aside, highly structured, rote memorization-only education may well help kids achieve the highest test scores, and it may well be the best way t…

9bn people - and all of them will be entrepreneurs. there is a world outside of HN and there a lot of folks can barely finish high school.

You are operating under the assumption that only exceptional children can learn motivation, self direction, and a genuine interest in learning. That is not true.

As our society outsources more and more jobs to robots, those displaced workers need to be able to do more than just blindly follow directions. They don't have to start companies, but they do need to be able to think critically and have skills that are not replaceable by a robot.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#119

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 7:55 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #91

GuiA wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also worked a fair amount with "alternative" educational structures, albeit in a different country (France). In those kind of pedagogies (mostly Freinet for me), the adults ultimately do have a veto power. However, when you give kids responsibility, something funny happens - you find that they tend to become very reasonable, and you very rarely have to use veto power. More often than not, it's more renegotiation…

How do you deal with the students who outsmart teachers? A lack of rule sets would seem an open field for students to manipulate the adults in the room. One of my friend's daughters is vicious at this. At 14, for a "career and personal planning" project, she stated career her goal as "porn star" and somehow wrangled a skype interview with a 19yo "mentor" in the biz. She has no intention on following this path, but lo…

[deleted]

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#120

Post by adwn » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 7:57 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #97

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awesome, my kids would take the cookie out of my mouth as I chew it. I put that down mainly to nurture. IME toddlers will refuse to touch something almost perfect aesthetically then pick up something else out of the dirt, a worm maybe, and pop that in their mouth. Not sure we should be modeling pedagogies to foster toddler temperamentalility.

Why on earth would intorture myself by teaching my toddler to expect perfect cookies?

> Why on earth would intorture myself by teaching my toddler to expect perfect cookies?

You're not doing it intentionally or consciously. Children form habits from imitation – "Do as I say, not as I do" doesn't really work for them.