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Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

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Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#111

Post by mikeash »

projectramo wrote: post #107
mikeash wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are several examples of honor killings in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_St... I'm sure you can find them in other countries too. The people who use Muslim Match and the people who would commit honor killings aren't the same people. I don't see why it's so unimaginable that a child might use Muslim Match and their parent might think honor killings are necessary.

This is infuriating. Have you seen the infanticide statistics in the US? About 450/year. That is per year, btw. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/10/parents... One of the top reasons? "A parent acting out of revenge against a spouse or partner." Yet, you didn't express any concern that the Ashley Madison leak is going to lead to a spate of child murders. Honor killings are like that: rare, perverse, u…

Very interesting and I'm glad you brought that up.

I'm curious, though, in which way does this infuriate you? Are you infuriated that people are unaware of the potential infanticide in the AM case? Or are you infuriated that people are aware of the potential for death in this case? The former I can totally understand, but I'm guessing it's the latter and that seems like misdirected rage to me.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#112

Post by projectramo »

mikeash wrote: post #111
projectramo wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is infuriating. Have you seen the infanticide statistics in the US? About 450/year. That is per year, btw. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/10/parents... One of the top reasons? "A parent acting out of revenge against a spouse or partner." Yet, you didn't express any concern that the Ashley Madison leak is going to lead to a spate of child murders. Honor killings are like that: rare, perverse, u…

Very interesting and I'm glad you brought that up. I'm curious, though, in which way does this infuriate you? Are you infuriated that people are unaware of the potential infanticide in the AM case? Or are you infuriated that people are aware of the potential for death in this case? The former I can totally understand, but I'm guessing it's the latter and that seems like misdirected rage to me.

I am infuriated that people think that crime in Muslim countries represents Muslims, but crime in other countries represents criminals.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#113

Post by centizen »

basseq wrote: post #90
centizen wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's an important point to bring up, but I don't feel like the same people who were passing judgement on the AM leak are the ones raising concerns here. But if I had to explain the difference, I think it's the differences in potential backlash on the affected users. Majority of Ashely Madison users were not in countries that would severely persecute them for their activities.

Also note that at least two people committed suicide over the AM leak. Not killed , but death nonetheless. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34044506

I'm not trying to pretend that was a victimless crime - it was bad and it negatively affected people, some to a deadly extent. But the degree of risk here for all involved is night and day compared between the two.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#114

Post by hackuser »

throwanem wrote: post #99
hackuser wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Muslim societies that they actually stone people to death for adultery This is false. Put on your skeptical, critical thinking cap: 1) Do you really know that stoning is prevelant, and not just a few sensational news stories? 2) Is there a high correlation? That is, are there Muslim societies that don't stone people (maybe in wealthy parts of the world)? Are there other groups that do stone people and do similarly…

Do you know that it isn't? Do you know that there's not? You call DominikR's statements "misinformation", which amounts to a claim that they are false. You're every bit as much on the hook to substantiate your claims as he is to substantiate his. Please do so.

> You call DominikR's statements "misinformation", which amounts to a claim that they are false. You're every bit as much on the hook to substantiate your claims as he is to substantiate his

I strongly disagree. He makes the claims; it's up to him to substantiate them. It doesn't work if people say anything they want and ask others to falsify them; we could all make up statements all day.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#115

Post by mikeash »

projectramo wrote: post #112
mikeash wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting and I'm glad you brought that up. I'm curious, though, in which way does this infuriate you? Are you infuriated that people are unaware of the potential infanticide in the AM case? Or are you infuriated that people are aware of the potential for death in this case? The former I can totally understand, but I'm guessing it's the latter and that seems like misdirected rage to me.

I am infuriated that people think that crime in Muslim countries represents Muslims, but crime in other countries represents criminals.

I don't see anyone here saying that this represents all Muslims.

There is a difference between stereotyping an entire group based on the actions of a few, and merely acknowledging the actions of a few. The fact that some Muslims practice honor killings is just reality, same as the fact that some Christians murder gay people or drive them to suicide.

Pointing out that some may suffer due to the actions of those few does not in any way imply that the whole group is in any way represented or complicit.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#116

Post by hackuser »

DominikR wrote: post #97
hackuser wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that it exists in Afghanistan (if Wikipedia is to be believed), at whatever frequency, doesn't address any of the questions I brought up.

And it exists in Saudi Arabia, Iran to name a few of the larger Muslim countries. And how about people that are homosexual. Right, death penalty in 11 Muslim countries. It's entirely possible that also homosexual people would have used this dating app.

Again, this isn't evidence. I assume people on HN have better analytical ability than that, skepticism, and the ability to filter meaningful data from the large universe of assertions. Let's try taking this very serious issue seriously (see my above statements).

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#117

Post by douche »

douche wrote: post #74
FreedomToCreate wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big difference is that people outed by Ashley Madison were not at risk to the degree that muslim daters are at being harmed violently. And even though the definition of adultery may vary between cultures, ignoring the difference between a website where you purposely go in blatant disregard of a personal and somewhat legal trust you established with someone versus a website where you go in an attempt to build a ne…

If an eight-year-old hasn't been impressed with the immorality of theft by that point then there has been a serious lapse of parental and even basic community policing.

Apparently it is not okay to expect parents to teach their children that it is not acceptable to steal shit by the time they have reached school age...

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#118

Post by hackuser »

mikeash wrote: post #101
hackuser wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If some incident was going to result in a few more people getting struck and killed by lightning, that might well get a similar reaction. I disagree. How many things cause people to die in higher numbers? We wouldn't have time to read about all of them. If you are suggesting that stereotype and demonization of Muslims isn't involved in the response, I have a very hard time believing it. Just look at those things he…

HN tends to follow stories about tech, science, and other hacker-y things. The fact that this story may involve death is interesting, but it's not why it's getting attention here. But since it gets attention due to its tech content, and since it seems quite possible some death may result, I don't see why that should be ignored just because the numbers are small. I don't see this as stereotyping or demonization. If pe…

It's interesting to me that people seek to deny the obvious, the prejudice against Muslims. You can find many such statements on this page.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#119

Post by hackuser »

DominikR wrote: post #105
hackuser wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Muslim societies that they actually stone people to death for adultery This is false. Put on your skeptical, critical thinking cap: 1) Do you really know that stoning is prevelant, and not just a few sensational news stories? 2) Is there a high correlation? That is, are there Muslim societies that don't stone people (maybe in wealthy parts of the world)? Are there other groups that do stone people and do similarly…

This is about a leak from a dating app for Muslims. So it doesn't make sense for me to write about the risks that someone in Hawaii or Germany might face after a similar leak. And sorry, but there are many types of sexual acts that are criminalised in Muslim countries. Not just adultery which is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Jemen, Qatar (and I'm sure there are many more) but also homosexual…

> You can't brush that away by pointing to discrimination.

I don't, I point to very poor reasoning and analysis. I challenge you to answer my questions above instead of posting more insubstantial analysis.

I do point to discrimination where I see it; as you say:

> If no one speaks up about this then these societies will continue like this forever

But if one spreads ignorance, it persists forever, with great harm to the victims. So we must be careful to do the right thing. Let's look in the mirror first, and point out our own problems; we are just as flawed and human.

----

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Re: Hacked: Private Messages From Dating Site ‘Muslim Match’

#120

Post by throwanem »

hackuser wrote: post #114
throwanem wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that it isn't? Do you know that there's not? You call DominikR's statements "misinformation", which amounts to a claim that they are false. You're every bit as much on the hook to substantiate your claims as he is to substantiate his. Please do so.

> You call DominikR's statements "misinformation", which amounts to a claim that they are false. You're every bit as much on the hook to substantiate your claims as he is to substantiate his I strongly disagree. He makes the claims; it's up to him to substantiate them. It doesn't work if people say anything they want and ask others to falsify them; we could all make up statements all day.

If the question is as clear as you make it sound, falsifying his statements should be trivial, with the beneficial effect of preventing anyone who cares about factuality from taking his claims seriously. Sounds like an easy win to me, if you can do it.
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