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Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

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Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#111

Post by hsod »

aquilaFiera wrote: post #16
bryanlarsen wrote: post #4

Now that they've gone to the expense of moving their remaining 30 employees to San Francisco and have demonstrated such incredible loyalty to their employees, let's see how many of those remaining 30 take advantage of the many opportunities in the Valley to jump ship.

I was apart of the reddit exodus when they closed the Salt Lake City and New York City offices (I was in SLC.) It only took me 90 days which was the minimum requirement to not have to pay your moving expenses back. Since then, which happened in January 2015, I would roughly estimate that 50-60% has turned over at reddit. All of this to say it typically doesn't end well for the company unless this is what they're plan…

To be clear, you took the relo package, waited the minimum number of days, then jumped ship?

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#112

Post by likpok »

udba wrote: post #30

As an engineering student at UWaterloo it's pretty depressing to watch most of the best upper year engineers finish their studies and then abandon Canada for SV. There's logic in it for them: American companies are offering huge sums of money by Canadian standards, the weather is nicer, and the opportunities seem better. If I didn't have serious reservations about living in the US, I would probably do the same. Howev…

> most of the best upper year engineers finish their studies and then abandon Canada for SV.

That might have something to do with it. If none of the good people are willing to stay for reasonable rates, companies may have trouble finding people regardless. That can reduce the costs of moving to SV.

For example: if the people you'd want to hire are comparing your offer against a SV salary, you may need to pay SV salaries anyway. But you'll still lose out on people who also like the job density of SV, or the weather, or that their friends have moved.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#113

Post by slantyyz »

Naritai wrote: post #35

I came to the valley in a forced relocation some time ago. In that case, we also lost >50% of the team, including engineering. (I stayed until my green card came through then jumped ship.) It was clear, though, that the VPs and up didn't care, because they had their heart set on being Silicon Valley Executives, and damned if they were going to let the rank-and-file get in their way. They were so caught up in the glor…

>> There is no way it's difficult to hire talent in Toronto, which consistently ranks as one of the most desirable cities in the world.

It's not hard to hire talent in Toronto if you're willing to pay full price.

In my experience, a lot of startups will try to use the lure of risky options/equity/bonus promises with the occasional signing bonus in exchange for a "startup discount" on the base salary.

Combine high living expenses of Toronto with the fact that there are so many large companies in Toronto offering stable jobs, your talent pool shrinks to those people who can or are willing to take on the risk of working for a startup.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#114

Post by paulgb »

keithwhor wrote: post #92
paulgb wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, I know a lot of people who reluctantly moved to the Bay Area for salary who would rather be elsewhere. The Bay Area appeals to some people, but not everybody (also, hey Keith :))

Yeah, but the question here isn't "Bay Area" v "Everywhere Else", it's "Bay Area" v "Toronto". Toronto has lower salaries, colder weather, and generally fewer investors that are more risk-averse (which puts companies there at more risk existentially, especially in early stages). It's a beautiful city, I love Toronto, I was born and grew up there. But there's a lot of work to be done to make it competitive with the Ba…

I prefer my seasons on a annual cycle to a daily cycle :)

Weather preferences aside, an entry-level SV salary could buy a pretty great quality of life in Toronto vs. comfortably scraping by in the valley.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#115

Post by prodigal_erik »

mhurron wrote: post #32
raverbashing wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kathan told BetaKit that the “incredible difficulty” of acquiring senior-level talent in Toronto No, it isn't But they're probably looking for "the perfect candidate" and the one that thinks and does things exactly as they expect They won't find it in SF as well

> They won't find it in SF as well The person they want already exists in SF, because their perfect candidate hits the bullet point 'exists in San Francisco or Silicon Valley.' As long as everyone continues to believe California is some sort of special, magical place, this will happen. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Everyone goes to California to work at the 'best' places, the 'best' places go to California t…

California isn't magical, but it's the only place where you aren't left with a dead sea effect of candidates who weren't willing or able to move away to a better labor market.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#116

Post by pj_mukh »

jgw wrote: post #78
wyager wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is a country, not a dear friend. Workers and companies owe nothing to it. If it makes more sense for someone to leave, then more power to them. Canada can either try to make itself more appealing or deal with people leaving.

Re: "owe nothing to it", I respectfully disagree. Canadians at Waterloo enjoy a heavily subsidized world-class education, at the tax-payer's expense, then leave to contribute nothing to the economy that produced them. Interestingly, some also come back later in life to enjoy subsidized health care to which they've also never contributed. I wonder if there's a way to structure post-secondary education subsidies as a s…

This is silly protectionism. UWaterloo students abroad has arguably what's built its reputation. So goes for everywhere else you hear "Keep all my in my "

Disclosure: UW Tron Eng 2010, still in Waterloo.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#117

Post by ska »

gist wrote: post #95
mabbo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be thrown off of Toronto by one douchebag company. There's lots of jobs here for developers, and it's just a great city (imho). I posted below, but the company I work for is hiring in Toronto and the pay is pretty good for this city.

> Don't be thrown off of Toronto by one douchebag company What do you think the company should do? It's a company not a person who left their spouse when they got cancer. They are doing what they feel they should do in order to thrive and survive. Now you can argue that you think they are wrong, that is that they don't need to move. But then again you won't suffer the downside of the wrong decision. They will. Compan…

They can decide to move, sure. And it might be the right decision.

However, hiring people and relocating them 1 week before said move was decided would just be incompetent.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#118

Post by ska »

kevindeasis wrote: post #67
udba wrote: post #30

As an engineering student at UWaterloo it's pretty depressing to watch most of the best upper year engineers finish their studies and then abandon Canada for SV. There's logic in it for them: American companies are offering huge sums of money by Canadian standards, the weather is nicer, and the opportunities seem better. If I didn't have serious reservations about living in the US, I would probably do the same. Howev…

Out of curiosity, how does the process of job hunting work in the Ontario area if they get a job in SV? Does the SV company offer a visa permit or does the student apply for work permit in advance?

Particularly for Canadians Americans going across the border int tech, this is made quite easy by the TN "visa" program (it isn't really a visa, but part of the NAFTA agreement).

In other cases, the work status conversation is an important part of hiring and negotiation.

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#119

Post by spullara »

udba wrote: post #60
spullara wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "most of the best upper year engineers finish their studies and then abandon Canada for SV" then "companies make the move". You've laid out in your comment exactly why a company would rationally choose to move from Toronto to SF.

Most of the students that do leave for the US would be more than willing to stay in Canada, even if they were not paid as much. It's a familiar culture, the cost of living is cheaper, and in many ways Toronto is a better place to live than SF[0]. When they do go to the US, it's because they're getting huge sums of money mainly from SV giants like Facebook, Google, Amazon, Apple and so on. While many grads are willing…

Generally for a tech startup, I do think it can make sense to move. Plus, necessity is the mother of invention, Airbnb and Uber were both started because of how painful it can be to live in SF. What if the founders had been somewhere affordable with great public transportation?

Re: Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF

#120

Post by thefastlane »

MOARDONGZPLZ wrote: post #53

I relocated to Toronto SPECIFICALLY to work for Joist, exactly one week ago. I was laid off along with everyone else within 6 days of working for them! Prior to that I was working in the USA for a few years; I'm now in a position where I have to figure out next steps with regards to my career :/ I'm still unsure why they hired me and brought me down here? I'm also hoping that they pay me for my time there (I worked m…

i'm really sorry this happened. hoping you find a better gig in short order.
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