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FBI raids dental software researcher who discovered patient data on FTP server

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Re: FBI raids dental software researcher who discovered patient data on FTP server

#111

Post by basseq »

gist wrote: post #100
ghoul2 wrote: post #90

As a separate issue: why the "shock and awe" response to what is (even allegedly) a non-violent crime? Why the assault rifles? Why could he not have been arrested by just a couple agents walking upto the door, knocking, serving the search warrant, and then maybe having the techs step in to conduct the search and seizure? Why does US Law Enforcement so dramatically escalate every contact with a citizen? Everytime they…

Two reasons perhaps. Publicity and safety of the officers. How do they know how this person is going to react (or anyone else in the house)? And the publicity is much greater with a greater show of force (hence a deterrent) as well with a shock and awe response.

> How do they know how this person is going to react (or anyone else in the house)?

This is always true. By that logic, we should SWAT every warrant, every traffic stop, every parade. There should always be a threat assessment.

This would imply it's all #2 ("publicity"). Which means police forces and public defenders are using the threat of extreme violence as... a PR move? Against American citizens who are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law?

Re: FBI raids dental software researcher who discovered patient data on FTP server

#112

Post by jessaustin »

rrggrr wrote: post #87
tobltobs wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would make me even more nervous, because if they would find some childprn it would have been justified.

You are being paranoid. There are over 13,000 FBI agents but probably 5x that number are needed to deal with organized crime, white collar crime, national security threats, public corruption, background investigations and other cases within their jurisdiction. You can bet there were/are a few agents shaking their heads in irritation over what appears to be a waste of resources.

This seems like bullshit. It would have been easy to determine ahead of time that Shafer is not a threat to evade arrest, destroy evidence, or harm agents. Based on that, it would have been easy to interrupt Shafer as he headed to his car to drive to work, explain to him his situation, and have him call his wife and ask her to take the children and walk down to the park for an hour. Next time FBI want to harass a citizen like this, they should leave the assault weapons at home.

The public would certainly be safer and happier if there were fewer FBI agents rather than more.

Re: FBI raids dental software researcher who discovered patient data on FTP server

#113

Post by phusion »

This is so wrong, but it's not surprising. We've been reading stories for years of security researchers being charged with a crime or harassed for simply pointing out blatant security holes.

What kind of thinking is this? He was doing them a favor. Every time, it seems to me that they are embarrassed by the incident and lash out. WHY!?? We should be treating these researchers like heroes, not kicking in their doors and having the FBI charge them with criminal CFAA violations. Once the chilling effect comes down in full force, we'll have a much less secure Internet.

Re: FBI raids dental software researcher who discovered patient data on FTP server

#114

Post by dragonwriter »

gist wrote: post #100
ghoul2 wrote: post #90

As a separate issue: why the "shock and awe" response to what is (even allegedly) a non-violent crime? Why the assault rifles? Why could he not have been arrested by just a couple agents walking upto the door, knocking, serving the search warrant, and then maybe having the techs step in to conduct the search and seizure? Why does US Law Enforcement so dramatically escalate every contact with a citizen? Everytime they…

Two reasons perhaps. Publicity and safety of the officers. How do they know how this person is going to react (or anyone else in the house)? And the publicity is much greater with a greater show of force (hence a deterrent) as well with a shock and awe response.

> How do they know how this person is going to react (or anyone else in the house)?

Well, you could do some basic investigation before an arrest, which would both give you in most cases a good idea of the threat profile and often give you a better idea if the information you've been fed actually accurately represents the facts.

Its not "investigation" is, you know, right there in the name of the agency, or anything.

Re: FBI raids dental software researcher who discovered patient data on FTP server

#115

Post by mox1 »

wtvanhest wrote: post #98
ghoul2 wrote: post #90

As a separate issue: why the "shock and awe" response to what is (even allegedly) a non-violent crime? Why the assault rifles? Why could he not have been arrested by just a couple agents walking upto the door, knocking, serving the search warrant, and then maybe having the techs step in to conduct the search and seizure? Why does US Law Enforcement so dramatically escalate every contact with a citizen? Everytime they…

Requiring the warrant to specify the level of force could be interesting. Are there good reasons why this could not be done?

At a federal level, this is mostly done. Before executing a search warrant, feds usually pull criminal background and check gun registries. Then look at the reason for a search warrant (drugs, guns, terrorism, etc.).

In theory, they combine those things to decide whether to just knock on the door and walk in or bring SWAT along.

This happens different between agencies and what parts of the country.

But, codifying these guidelines / rules into a law probably wouldn't hurt. Sometimes it is hard to capture the nuances of the situation into a formal law though.

Also, remember that like 10-100's of these things are probably executed daily, peacefully, without any conflict or issues. You only hear about it when they go wrong (or some asshole fed is in a bad mood or something I guess).

Re: FBI raids dental software researcher who discovered patient data on FTP server

#116

Post by dragonwriter »

zbobet2012 wrote: post #106
gist wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two reasons perhaps. Publicity and safety of the officers. How do they know how this person is going to react (or anyone else in the house)? And the publicity is much greater with a greater show of force (hence a deterrent) as well with a shock and awe response.

Research on the subject says this is more dangerous for the cops then the calmer approaches. The irony is cops do this to protect themselves, and statistically speaking it has the exact opposite effect.

If the research says that then either:

(1) The law enforcement decision makers are unaware of the research (which is unlikely), or

(2) The stated motivation is not the actual motivation.

Re: FBI raids dental software researcher who discovered patient data on FTP server

#117

Post by Quanticles »

Steuard wrote: post #27

I know this is only tangentially related to the HN content here, but does anyone have a sense of why the FBI would choose to respond to this sort of case with a dozen agents and weapons drawn? Rather than, say, two guys politely ringing the bell and asking him to come with them? Unless there's a lot left out of this article, I wouldn't think most "unauthorized computer access" suspects tend to be heavily armed. (Part…

Any time part of an organization is given resources, they must use those resources to justify having them and continuing to have them.

They probably rarely have cause to perform this sort of raid, so they do so at any opportunity.

Re: FBI raids dental software researcher who discovered patient data on FTP server

#118

Post by codedokode »

callesgg wrote: post #44

About a month or so a go i found a open public mongo database with about 12GB of records regarding peoples retirement founds of what i assume was hundreds of thousands of people, account numbers, how much money was in the accounts when they had moved them to various founds and so on. Thought long and hard about what to do but decided to not do anything, dont feel like risking my entire life just to help someone. This…

And there should be a responsibility for not applying proper measures to protect personal information.

Re: FBI raids dental software researcher who discovered patient data on FTP server

#119

Post by ludamad »

eximius wrote: post #54
jneal wrote: post #37

This reminds me of something that happened to me in high school back in 1999. I found an Excel doc in a public network drive that contained every single student's SSN, DOB, whether they had free/reduced lunch, address, phone, etc. I was admittedly snooping around, but this was all public stuff every student and teacher had full access to. When I found it, I told one of the teachers that I trusted and she insisted tha…

> "Did you ever stop to think if maybe this information was public for a reason?" If it was meant to be public, then you shouldn't have gotten in trouble for pointing out its existence. I don't understand the twisted logic there.

This is public for the teachers, snooping this file is the same as rummaging through teacher's stuff!

Re: FBI raids dental software researcher who discovered patient data on FTP server

#120

Post by pg_is_a_butt »

ghoul2 wrote: post #90

As a separate issue: why the "shock and awe" response to what is (even allegedly) a non-violent crime? Why the assault rifles? Why could he not have been arrested by just a couple agents walking upto the door, knocking, serving the search warrant, and then maybe having the techs step in to conduct the search and seizure? Why does US Law Enforcement so dramatically escalate every contact with a citizen? Everytime they…

he made the "people in charge" look like fools... (granted, they were idiots acting like fools, and if anything he was trying to help)

"people in charge" only stay in charge when they don't look like fools. so anyone pointing out the king isn't wearing any clothes must be tied to a stake and burned for all to see.

also, your dog must die.

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