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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#111

Post by sokoloff »

thiagoperes wrote: post #85
amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

First of all, no job should be considered dirty. Second, if you go to places like Netherlands, Norway and Japan you'll see that it's not about money. Higher education prepares workers to do more complex, more efficient and more productive jobs. Also, the society is more conscious about not having someone to do stupid things for them like collecting their trays after they eat at the McDonadls, this is YOUR responsibil…

You're suggesting that people that would be considered "dumb" today will suddenly start inventing automation of street cleaning, trash collection, and the like if we implement a basic income and better education?

That strikes me as an extraordinary claim.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#112

Post by mseebach »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #63
mseebach wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem with the UBI debate is that few people explicitly name the amounts they imagine. You seem to imply a level near the minimum wage, but that's flat out impossible. The total US tax revenue is around $20k/year/person, so a realistic UBI is upper bounded at perhaps $2-300/month (full time at $15 is about $2,600/month) - and at 20% of total revenue, that would have to replace substantial portions of ex…

I envision it as enough for someone to get by. So not enough for luxury expenditures. Basically food and shelter. I'm also looking at this from the perspective of someone in the UK who doesn't have to think of things like health care and education which changes things quite a bit. I'd say around $800 p/m per person would be plenty if you look at food and rent for a room in a shared apartment. Tax revenue should also…

$800/month comes out to just short of 50% of total tax revenue. You need a lot more than massive savings on welfare programs to pull off a 50% cut in all government spending, local, state and federal.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#113

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #19
sambe wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem like enough for Switzerland - what do you think? Based on my experience this would be on the very low side. The previous vote on minimum wage was quoted as working out at around 4000CHF/month. Granted, most basic income proposals are on the low side - this just seems even lower than normal.

It seems low. I think this is what cashiers at Lidl or Leader Price actually make in Switzerland. Or rather, it's the urban legend in France that this how much a cashier in Lidl/Leader Price makes in Switzerland. Though this might be part of the whole "Everything is better in Switzerland" psyche prevalent in France (streets are paved in sheets of gold, etc).

The gold doesn't corrode or pothole - it's a better investment over the long term.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#114

Post by sokoloff »

nine_k wrote: post #101
NhanH wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the dirty jobs? In the long run, any menial task is supposed to be automated away completely. In short term, what you described already happened in area like Post-doc and game indu…

I don't think plumbing or even waste collection is going to be seriously automated any time soon. Can you imagine what kind of autonomous robot would it take to be able to do regular plumbing work, in cramped spaces, with low visibility, requiring relatively significant physical efforts? The software side of it can definitely be solved (though not easy at all). The hardware side would require significant breakthrough…

Agreed, though I don't think I'd include electricians, plumbers, and car mechanics work in the set of things called "menial tasks". Those are skilled trades, even though blue-collar.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#115

Post by empressplay »

chongli wrote: post #108
empressplay wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced it will even provide the basics. There would be nothing to stop rents / real-estate prices from going up to compensate. Or food, or utilities. It's simple supply and demand.

Basic income would not significantly increase the demand for food or accommodation. How does "simple supply and demand" work in this case?

People will be able to pay more for it.

Remember, part of demand is the amount people are willing and able to pay.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#116

Post by weddpros »

arximboldi wrote: post #23
amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

I don't know if that would actually be the case, but if it were, the question would be: is it actually a bad thing? I don't see any moral justification for a software engineer earning more than someone collecting waste [1]. In fact, it is normal that as our society gets more educated and the supply of unskilled workers goes down, a lot of hard manual labor will become expensive. This is already the case with mining,…

"I don't see any moral justification for a software engineer earning more than someone collecting waste"

That's because moral justification isn't at the center of our society. The market is. Many attempts have been made to switch from the market to something else, not many were brilliant.

The "lucky historical accident" you cite isn't one... It's just the way our society was built.

Also you could argue on many different levels. To me, long studies meant delayed enjoyment of life, less freedom until 23, etc... You get less immediately, more later.

In the end, the question is really: "Do we want to use social engineering (as it's called) and try to build a brand new society, when all other attempts lead to poverty and war?"

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#117

Post by tempodox »

amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

And the price for the production of waste would go up, too. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#118

Post by _Understated_ »

pjc50 wrote: post #102
_Understated_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone wants a Sci-Fi dystopia: It doesn't benefit anyone. Government should provide every citizen with basics should they falter: Food, clothing, shelter, education etc. I absolutely believe that is a basic human right. What I don't want is to fund anything other than a safety net: Welfare should be a helping hand to get you back on your feet or to give you a start - Nothing more. It should also come w…

> Government should provide every citizen with basics should they falter: Food, clothing, shelter, education etc. I absolutely believe that is a basic human right. > What I don't want is to fund anything other than a safety net: Welfare should be a helping hand to get you back on your feet or to give you a start - Nothing more. It should also come with an expiry date! These two statements completely contradict one an…

You are right, they are contradictory - I was typing faster than I was thinking.

I believe in a kind of 2 tier system but I didn't get that across.

e.g. You lose you job and the welfare system keeps you going at your current burn rate (you will likely have to make some adjustments but you won't lose your house!) until you can get back on your feet. Let's say 12 months (pulled that figure out the air!)

After that, the basic welfare system comes into play where you will be given food, shelter, clothing, education etc.

That's the basic human right part I meant.

I am glossing over the details but at a high level you are kept afloat at your current level for a period, then you are given the basics for as long as you need them.

As for disability, that would be kind of basics+ (Not trying to make light of it but it's easiest to put it that way). I believe that it's every citizens duty to take care of people that just can't help themselves through disability. Their case be slightly different e.g. a house may need modifications, special transport etc.

Does that make sense?

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#119

Post by sokoloff »

empressplay wrote: post #82
panic wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As costs go up, consumers buy less. There's a certain price which maximizes profit: that's where it ends.

Exactly. I have 5 apples. There are 5 people willing to pay at least $2 for them, so I sell them for $2. That's basic economics. With a basic income, now most of these people have more money. So I can charge $3 per apple, and even if I only sell 4 of them I still make $2 more than I made before. I eat the last apple myself, and the person who only has the basic income doesn't get an apple at all. I think universal we…

However, the $12 you got in case B is not worth as much in the market as the $10 you go in case A, since the economy appears to have suffered 50% inflation in the meantime.

Your $12 in case B has a purchasing power equivalent to $8 in case A.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#120

Post by latch »

thiagoperes wrote: post #85
amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

First of all, no job should be considered dirty. Second, if you go to places like Netherlands, Norway and Japan you'll see that it's not about money. Higher education prepares workers to do more complex, more efficient and more productive jobs. Also, the society is more conscious about not having someone to do stupid things for them like collecting their trays after they eat at the McDonadls, this is YOUR responsibil…

Your parent probably meant dirty in a very physical way, not, as you seem to have taken it, a demeaning way. I don't think of "dumb" when I hear "dirty"; maybe the popular Discovery TV Show "Dirty Jobs" is a reason for that.

Also, while I've never been to Norway or Netherlands, I think you're underestimating the number of "dirty jobs" that support you. Who's tilling the land? Mining the minerals? Excavating land? Driving the garbage trunks? Emptying the lobster traps? De-greasing the engines? Tending the public spaces?

I'm not against legalized prostitution, but I think its a strong strike against any claims of higher responsibility towards society.

Yes, many of these things might be automated one day, but that seems far away (a century at least). Your parent's question is valid and, as far as I'm concerned, there's no place on earth that comes remotely close to what you seem to be describing.

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