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TTIP Leaks

ttip-leaks.org

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Re: TTIP Leaks

#111

Post by consp »

legulere wrote: post #103
RobertoG wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, let's go to the facts: 1. A treaty is negotiated between the two major markets in the world. 2. We know that when this kind of treaties are passed is almost impossible to go back. 3. We know that the most important input to those treaties come from corporations. 4. The conversations happen in secret. 5. The democratic representatives are not allowed to read the treaty except in a hurry and without legal help. 6.…

Some further facts: - the treaty tries to abolish market regulation differences between the two markets - costumer protection regulations between the US and the EU are incompatible - In the US often e.g. chemicals are allowed until proven hazardous, in the EU they are outlawed until proven harmless - the tribunals will operate outside the normal juridical systems of the US and the EU

Resulting in:

- No differences, but

- US consumer protection (which is hardly any)

- US (bio)chemical regulations

- A non-conformative tribunal which is not elected, not governed, has no oversight and has no basis in any civil law (as you cannot appeal/trail as a civilian if you are disadvantaged by its rulings)

Re: TTIP Leaks

#112

Post by mangeletti »

jcfrei wrote: post #68
tommyman wrote: post #9

So business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in the US side of negotiations (far more than any public interest groups). Then on the EU side, business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in negotiations to the detriment of all public groups. So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on ho…

What is with all the tinfoil hat conspiracies in here? Can we please resume to a rational discussion?

Yeah, there's nothing conspiracy-like about a group of powerful people colluding in secret to produce laws, via illegal means, for nearly the entire planet. That's literally a superset of the definition of "conspiracy". Do you spend a lot of time looking into the sun?

Re: TTIP Leaks

#113

Post by Xylakant »

witty_username wrote: post #92
rkrzr wrote: post #39

This leak once again shows the importance of transparency in negotiations that will impact the lives of 800 million people (and the rest of the world indirectly). If TTIP were ratified, it would be out of the control of any subsequently elected democratic governments as it would be part of international law. Regardless what you think of TTIP it seems like the very least to ask is that a contract of such importance is…

But it will be discussed in the public once it is finalized and IIRC the U.S. Congress has 60 days to pass it.

Changing an already finished agreement will be a major undertaking, bordering on the impossible. The Congress can either pass or not pass it, which biases the vote heavily. Having the opportunity to present a negotiated document implies the opportunity to anchor the discussions starting point.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#114

Post by blue_dinner »

mvanvoorden wrote: post #72
ppod wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>this is what we get when countries still want to dominate each other. The most peaceful, prosperous, and healthy period known in human history?

You're repeating propaganda. May be there's less violence, but the amount of suffering has skyrocketed over the years. A more than significant amount of people are dependent on tranquilizers and anti-depressants to make their life bearable, because for them it has become mundane and meaningless without. Statistiscs may tell a story of less violence, and people getting older and having more material possessions, but t…

"May be there's less violence, but the amount of suffering has skyrocketed over the years. A more than significant amount of people are dependent on tranquilizers and anti-depressants to make their life bearable, because for them it has become mundane and meaningless without."

I don't think this is very accurate. People get hooked on painkillers usually because they had some sort of accident and need them for pain...and since opiates are extremely addictive, continue to take them after they no longer need them.

"also these numbers don't show how much exploitation and environmental damage our alleged 'prosperity' causes in other parts of the world."

You can't blame us for countries that decide to have no rules and ruin their environment. When you compare the environment of the US to pretty much anywhere in the world, it's one of the cleanest (if not the cleanest).

..and 'exploitation'? We built the middle class of China. Before we started going overseas to build factories, the majority of people in China were in complete and utter poverty.

Hardly what I call exploitation.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#115

Post by switch007 »

JPKab wrote: post #102
tommyman wrote: post #9

So business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in the US side of negotiations (far more than any public interest groups). Then on the EU side, business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in negotiations to the detriment of all public groups. So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on ho…

"So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on how to screw over Europe." Let me change this for you to something more accurate: So this is really lots of big multinational corporations negotiating with themselves on how to screw over working people throughout the world. When you start tuning this into "US companies screwing over Europe", you play right into their hands. As if there aren't…

Every internal combustion engine in history has and will spew poison in to the air. You just thought it was slightly less than it actually was.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#116

Post by eternalban »

grecy wrote: post #33
tommyman wrote: post #9

So business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in the US side of negotiations (far more than any public interest groups). Then on the EU side, business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in negotiations to the detriment of all public groups. So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on ho…

> This is a takeover attempt through the backdoor. In case it wasn't already immensely obvious, the third world war has been underway for some time. This one isn't a war fought with guns and bombs, it's a war fought with information, deals and economies. See China's massive economy and ownership of the US, the massive drop in oil price and what that's done to the world economy etc. The citizens of the world wouldn't…

> The citizens of the world wouldn't tolerate full-scale war

We've never really been given a choice in the matter.

Try this for size: "the citizens of the world [can't yet] tolerate" the reality of a One World government and thus require generational guidance. "News" at ten.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#117

Post by eternalban »

ppod wrote: post #58
grecy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a takeover attempt through the backdoor. In case it wasn't already immensely obvious, the third world war has been underway for some time. This one isn't a war fought with guns and bombs, it's a war fought with information, deals and economies. See China's massive economy and ownership of the US, the massive drop in oil price and what that's done to the world economy etc. The citizens of the world wouldn't…

>this is what we get when countries still want to dominate each other. The most peaceful, prosperous, and healthy period known in human history?

You set a pretty low bar. We have had 200+ years of exponential growth in knowledge and technology. By all rights, we should be (all n billion of us) living in an earthly paradise, today.

But you are right, in context of the past n thousands years, we're doing OK.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#119

Post by maxxxxx »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #109
maxxxxx wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the real problem. The term "economy" has been captured by big corporations. When I grew up in Germany the economy was supposed to be a benefit to all participants and a balance had to be achieved. Now the economy is supposed to be fine as long as big business is happy. The regular citizen doesn't count anymore. TTIP is just the final expression of this. Whatever I hear only lobbyists have been involved. No oth…

I'd like to point out that German economy and by extension, regular Germans, heavily depend on exports to the US. So, reducing frictions in trade between US and Europe should make regular Germans better off not worse off. How do you suppose German economy works ?

I know Germany benefits big time from exports. But the benefits have stopped going to the workers. Like in the US wages are stagnating while the "economy" supposedly is doing well.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#120

Post by tazjin »

burkaman wrote: post #93
tazjin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump is probably our only chance at stopping this from becoming a reality.

Isn't every current presidential candidate against TPP and TTIP? Except maybe Kasich, I guess.

Trump and Clinton are the only remaining candidates, and Clinton is flip-flopping on the issue depending on who she's talking to.

She only recently did an anti-TPP U-turn - who knows what she stands for after being elected. Fortunately for us she won't be elected though!

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