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Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

nytimes.com

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Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#111

Post by hsitz »

downandout wrote: post #79
nothrabannosir wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a lot of down-vote worthy responses to OP, and more downvotes. But in this case, I honestly don't see it: why is this not a fair question? I mean, in a genuinely neutral sense; isn't he right?

>in a genuinely neutral sense Asking if someone supports politicians that claim to be eco-conscious while raising campaign money, who are almost universally left-leaning, is far from "neutral". There are places on the Internet to espouse political support for either side. This, however, is not one of them.

Which politician is more likely to take steps helpful for climate change: (a) one who "claims" to be eco-conscious, or (b) one who thinks climate change is a hoax? Are you seriously telling me that a person who wants to do what they can for climate change should consider candidates (a) and (b) as equivalent, so far as climate change is concerned? Boggles my mind.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#112

Post by czechdeveloper »

Taek wrote: post #34
appleflaxen wrote: post #3

There is a whole lot of climate change evidence coming out that is terrifying. At what point does this become so scary that something happens to increase the taxes on fossil fuels so that consumption will go down? Falling renewable prices are not enough, and use-based taxes are the single best way to let individuals make their own decisions about what/how much to use. Carbon credits are a good market-based solution t…

I don't think we will see significant change until people are dying by the millions, in first world countries. If Japan is losing population to climate change, if the US is losing population to climate change, if the EU is losing population to climate change, THEN we will see change. Deaths in Indonesia, middle East, Africa, South + Central America won't be enough to inspire change. The people who have the power won'…

Well, then it will be way too late to do anything.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#113

Post by cromulent »

guscost wrote: post #86
ageofwant wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what are the consequences of you being wrong ?

The answer you're leading toward is "something akin to apocalypse", and I get it, it's scary. On the other hand have you really taken enough time to consider the consequences if your faction is wrong? Have you acknowledged that there could be bad consequences in that case too? Typically I hear "we would be taking better care of the environment anyway so win-win" but nobody ever adds "by granting loads of new power to…

I wouldn't characterize the situation in either of those ways.

I think we could all agree that non-renewable energy sources will run out at some point. Hence the name :). Or, to be more precise, the extraction of non-renewables will cost more than their utility.

So, at some point we have to transition: first to a mix, and eventually to renewables only.

I would venture that we could also agree that those who make their money from non-renewables have an interest in delaying this transition as long as possible. That's what I would do. So, there will need to be some sort of agreement to transition, and incentives to do so.

This doesn't necessarily need to be a "large long-term centrally planned project to administer the solution as decided by the most prominent or respected thinkers" - you can use economic incentives to leverage the market to do so. Well, you can in one country at a time fairly easily, but globally - it's tricky.

If (as it seems) use of non-renewables is also a cumulative pollutant and could cause large costs to society globally, then the smart thing to do would be to accelerate this process. This doesn't mean giving up "freedom for the promise of safety" - it means, again, using economic incentives, but balanced against the costs. This already happens, all the time. We aren't giving up freedoms. In my opinion, anyway. We don't need to give governments loads of new power. We need to agree this is what we want and instruct our governments to do it. They already tax, rebate, and subsidize many things (e.g corn crops).

The difficulty is the tragedy of the commons - and that's what all the arguments are about. Lots of countries, lots of different incentives, different histories, etc.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#114

Post by unclebucknasty »

xfactor973 wrote: post #32

I planted about 50 fruit trees and bushes when I moved into my new place. I also converted the electric to 100% renewable. Other than dumping my natural gas heater I'm not sure what's left that I can do to help reduce climate change.

The real problem is purely economic. It's not just economically-influenced as many would have us believe. It is 100% economics.

It's virtually impossible to move forward without fully acknowledging this fact.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#115

Post by pink_dinner »

appleflaxen wrote: post #3

There is a whole lot of climate change evidence coming out that is terrifying. At what point does this become so scary that something happens to increase the taxes on fossil fuels so that consumption will go down? Falling renewable prices are not enough, and use-based taxes are the single best way to let individuals make their own decisions about what/how much to use. Carbon credits are a good market-based solution t…

As long as you also increase taxes and have penalties in every country. Go to India, Hong Kong, Indonesia, China (The list could go on). The air is polluted with the stench of car exhaust pretty much every where you go. I even went to London a few months ago and got sick because of the pollution. When I would blow my nose at the end of the day, black nasty soot would be on the kleenix.

The US has done a lot to help out climate change and the environment. We have all kinds of EPA standards on our vehicles (that are actually followed), which have been in place for at least a decade or more. I can go to most major cities and not feel like I'm choking from the rancid air.

These taxes only end up strangling our economy because we follow the rules and other countries go un-checked because there is virtually no penalty.

"Carbon credits are a good market-based solution too, but it seems likely that people and industries will try to game the system."

Carbon credits are a joke. Huge companies pay for them and then just continue polluting. I thought the goal was to fix our environment, not make carbon credit companies wealthy. Money shouldn't give you a free pass to pollute.

Are we also going to tax electric vehicles because the batteries cause damage to the environment (and we don't have a good way to dispose of them yet)? How about the electricity used to charge the vehicle itself? Will that be taxed as well unless it's solar/wind/hydro?

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#116

Post by greeneggs »

jgalt212 wrote: post #15

Shouldn't reefs just migrate north in the northern hemisphere, and southwards in the southern hemisphere? I know this process can be quite slow, but on a long enough time frame it's conceivable there may be no net loss and possibly even a gain global reef acreage?

Regarding water temperature, there are two big changes when you move away from the equator:

1. Temperatures drop.

2. Temperature variability increases. (Seasons are more meaningful away from the equator.)

The second issue, of temperature variability, is a main problem that prevents reefs from migrating away from the equator in response to global warming. The corals can't tolerate a wide range of temperatures.

The other problem, as you say, is the time frame. Reefs are built up over thousands of years, and we are warming and acidifying the oceans over mere decades.

(And ocean acidification isn't helped at all by moving away from the equator.)

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#117

Post by stcredzero »

mooreds wrote: post #36
xfactor973 wrote: post #32

I planted about 50 fruit trees and bushes when I moved into my new place. I also converted the electric to 100% renewable. Other than dumping my natural gas heater I'm not sure what's left that I can do to help reduce climate change.

What is your commute like? What politicians do you support? Those are both ways you can affect climate change.

As SF author Robert Heinlein said through one of his characters, "Politics and peristalsis are similar, both in the quality of the outcome and the importance to your well-being and continued existence."

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#118

Post by downandout »

hsitz wrote: post #111
downandout wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in a genuinely neutral sense Asking if someone supports politicians that claim to be eco-conscious while raising campaign money, who are almost universally left-leaning, is far from "neutral". There are places on the Internet to espouse political support for either side. This, however, is not one of them.

Which politician is more likely to take steps helpful for climate change: (a) one who "claims" to be eco-conscious, or (b) one who thinks climate change is a hoax? Are you seriously telling me that a person who wants to do what they can for climate change should consider candidates (a) and (b) as equivalent, so far as climate change is concerned? Boggles my mind.

This is more political commentary, and the point of my comment was that this isn't the place for that. Also there are an infinite number of viewpoints on this subject in between those you outlined.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#119

Post by downandout »

beatpanda wrote: post #98
downandout wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Washington is too tainted by vested interests One could say this about both sides of this issue. Clean tech has utilized an enormous amount of lobbying and been given substantial subsidies as a result - despite the lack of appreciable results.

> despite the lack of appreciable results. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics

Anything that is subsidized to the level that solar has been will grow until the subsidies end or are reduced. If pedal power were subsidized in this fashion, not only would the power-generating stationary bike industry explode, but American obesity rates would plummet - right up until the subsidy ended.

Solar would continue to grow if it were economically viable on its own. It's getting closer and I hope it gets there. But when I said "appreciable results" I meant the introduction of economically viable alternatives, absent subsidies.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#120

Post by stcredzero »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #114
xfactor973 wrote: post #32

I planted about 50 fruit trees and bushes when I moved into my new place. I also converted the electric to 100% renewable. Other than dumping my natural gas heater I'm not sure what's left that I can do to help reduce climate change.

The real problem is purely economic. It's not just economically-influenced as many would have us believe. It is 100% economics. It's virtually impossible to move forward without fully acknowledging this fact.

Often this is true in spades for politics. Even the politics of hatred. Much has been written on the economic underpinnings of the genocide in Rwanda. Awareness of this makes climate change an even more pressing issue.
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