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Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

nytimes.com

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Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#111

Post by edwinnathaniel »

enraged_camel wrote: post #87
halite wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. Is that weekends are for? I do that too but do wonder at times...

My parents are doctors. They are in their 60s. And guess what: they still spend evenings and weekends reading medical journals, attending conferences (around the globe) and doing whatever else is necessary to keep up with new developments in their specialties. That's just what it takes to remain relevant in fast-moving fields. I think what software developers need is some perspective. We aren't the only ones who have…

I see this all the time but you can't compare apple (doctor) to orange (software developer).

Doctor is more "trustworthy" (perception-wise) as they get older while Developer is more in-demand when they're younger.

Doctor also technically made way more money than Developer (in general though, the statement may not stand if you compare Silicon Valley but you get the idea, even in other countries, Doctor probably made more than Developer).

Doctor also keep their job longer than Developer.

Doctor can read but does not necessarily have to demonstrate that to their prospective employers while Developer can't just say "I read Objective-C for Dummies therefore I am an expert of Objective-C".

These were just ones of many things that I can think of.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#112

Post by toomuchtodo »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #110
toomuchtodo wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not paid by the hour. I'm paid to deliver. This is true for most developers - typically we take a salary in return for getting stuff done. If you're a contractor, yes. If you're an employee, no, not at all. > Needless to say I'm opposed to your desire for the government to hobble your competition. Government exists to protect its citizens above profits. Are you insinuating that labor laws should not be enforced…

Salaried employees are not paid by the hour. They are paid by the week, regardless of how much work they've done. I'm not insinuating anything, I'm explicitly stating that this type of work agreement should not be banned. If you don't like it, demand something hourly. Just don't prevent me from working however I see fit.

> I'm not insinuating anything, I'm explicitly stating that this type of work agreement should not be banned.

Unfortunately, evidence has shown that employers are using such rules to take advantage of workers. Therefore, it should be heavily regulated.

We disagree, but that's okay. See you in the public policy arena.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#113

Post by matwood »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #93
yummyfajitas wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not paid by the hour. I'm paid to deliver. This is true for most developers - typically we take a salary in return for getting stuff done. Now if you want to lawyer up and demand X hours, $Y pay, rigid adherence to various requirements, etc, that's great for you. But if people are not willing to pay you as much due to the fact that those rigid requirements are a pain, you aren't being discriminated against due to…

> I'm not paid by the hour. I'm paid to deliver. This is true for most developers - typically we take a salary in return for getting stuff done. If you're a contractor, yes. If you're an employee, no, not at all. > Needless to say I'm opposed to your desire for the government to hobble your competition. Government exists to protect its citizens above profits. Are you insinuating that labor laws should not be enforced…

> Are you insinuating that labor laws should not be enforced? Or that employers should discriminate against employees who want to actually get paid for the time they work?

No, he's saying employers will and should pay for work produced and NOT hours worked. If you want to get paid strictly for time worked, then only do time based contracting.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#114

Post by toomuchtodo »

matwood wrote: post #113
toomuchtodo wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not paid by the hour. I'm paid to deliver. This is true for most developers - typically we take a salary in return for getting stuff done. If you're a contractor, yes. If you're an employee, no, not at all. > Needless to say I'm opposed to your desire for the government to hobble your competition. Government exists to protect its citizens above profits. Are you insinuating that labor laws should not be enforced…

> Are you insinuating that labor laws should not be enforced? Or that employers should discriminate against employees who want to actually get paid for the time they work? No, he's saying employers will and should pay for work produced and NOT hours worked. If you want to get paid strictly for time worked, then only do time based contracting.

Employee =! contractor. If you're an employee, you're getting paid for your time.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#115

Post by ChemicalWarfare »

halite wrote: post #73
zippergz wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the reasons I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. I can put Rails, React, Angular, Swift, etc. on my resume and answer questions about them (and point to projects I've used them on). I see keeping up with new technologies as an important part of my career development. If someone is truly biased against me because of my age, there's not much I can do about that. But I definite…

> I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. Is that weekends are for? I do that too but do wonder at times...

Realistically it doesn't even have to be done on the weekend per se. Typically averaging about an hour every day learning new stuff should be totally doable on a weekday.

As long as you have the drive (motivation can be different - some ppl like to hack, some are worried about their next gig etc) - this shouldn't be a problem.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#116

Post by ryandrake »

huherto wrote: post #63

I am 47. 27 years of professional experience. Got hooked in Basic. Fell in love with Pascal, C, C++, Smalltalk, Perl, and Java. Most new technologies are a re-encarnation of something that I did already the first time or second time around. I don't think my resume looks trendy. Still, I feel my skills are better than almost all of my friends and coworkers. They are 21-35. But, I see things that they don't. Subtle thi…

I'm right behind you! Some ideas I've tried, who knows whether they work or not:

1. Remove everything from your resume past 6 or so years in the past. Put a little note at the bottom saying that your extended work history is available upon request. Nobody wants to read a resume over 1 page anyway.

2. Don't list any years on your education--just list the institutions. That's an easy way to leak your age.

3. Regularly scrub for "outdated" technologies and topics. Instead of writing perl scripts to parse log files and output reports with Tcl/Tk, you were a full-stack developer who processed data analytics from critical business infrastructure.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#117

Post by rdl »

vox_mollis wrote: post #8
rdl wrote: post #3

I still maintain there's age-cohort bias (anti boomer, etc.), not strictly age bias. In 2000, I remember most people over 30 being clueless about the Internet (given that the population who were familiar with the Internet in the 80swas so small...that core group was of course super clueful, but was of measure zero vs. people who were learning about it in college every year.) Now, it's largely been the case that anyon…

I'd hazard a guess that there is some appearance bias involved, as well. Older people tend toward higher BMI, and younger overweight people "carry" their weight better. Discrimination on appearance is already well-documented.

I'm a fat bald white guy who is nearly 40. I haven't really noticed this to be a problem.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#118

Post by rdl »

vox_mollis wrote: post #8
rdl wrote: post #3

I still maintain there's age-cohort bias (anti boomer, etc.), not strictly age bias. In 2000, I remember most people over 30 being clueless about the Internet (given that the population who were familiar with the Internet in the 80swas so small...that core group was of course super clueful, but was of measure zero vs. people who were learning about it in college every year.) Now, it's largely been the case that anyon…

I'd hazard a guess that there is some appearance bias involved, as well. Older people tend toward higher BMI, and younger overweight people "carry" their weight better. Discrimination on appearance is already well-documented.

I'm a fat bald white guy who is nearly 40. I haven't really noticed this to be a problem.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#119

Post by edwinnathaniel »

zippergz wrote: post #76
zippergz wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the reasons I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. I can put Rails, React, Angular, Swift, etc. on my resume and answer questions about them (and point to projects I've used them on). I see keeping up with new technologies as an important part of my career development. If someone is truly biased against me because of my age, there's not much I can do about that. But I definite…

Also, to be clear. I think that having many years of experience, hard-won judgement, really strong foundations, and experience with a variety of technologies (even if they aren't the newest) SHOULD be enough to be seriously considered for a job. Someone who has been in the industry for 20 years and knows a bunch of languages and frameworks is most likely going to be able to pick up a new one quickly. And he or she wi…

I was on the other side of the table: as an interviewer (plus a resume screener). I've seen this before with my own eyes but then my experience is just an anecdote: back in the 1998-2005 era, people keep piling on multiple technologies: C, C++, Java, Perl, XML, XPath, XQuery, XForms, SOAP, etc but whenever I looked into their resume, it becomes quite clear that they "learn" these technologies while working on something that:

1) I've never heard of,

2) or the needs to incorporate enterprise solution from back in the days (e.g.: form builder, complex enterprise frameworks, etc) doing some enterprise system

In most cases, again this is my anecdote, none of these developers pass the interview.

NodeJS was hot in the last 2 years (thought it has cool down a bit lately) but to me, NodeJS seems to have the risk of becoming one of those X[technology] revolution in which could lead to a negative signal if one has it in one's resume (plus it's a chance for me to grill candidate how good he/she is when it comes to JavaScript idioms, patterns, best-practices, automation-testing because at the moment, I know the majority of developers who put JavaScript on their resume don't actually practice "good hygiene" when it comes to JavaScript while I know for sure the number of Java developers whom I've interviewed before at least could demonstrate a better/solid software engineering skill).

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#120

Post by ryandrake »

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #111
enraged_camel wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents are doctors. They are in their 60s. And guess what: they still spend evenings and weekends reading medical journals, attending conferences (around the globe) and doing whatever else is necessary to keep up with new developments in their specialties. That's just what it takes to remain relevant in fast-moving fields. I think what software developers need is some perspective. We aren't the only ones who have…

I see this all the time but you can't compare apple (doctor) to orange (software developer). Doctor is more "trustworthy" (perception-wise) as they get older while Developer is more in-demand when they're younger. Doctor also technically made way more money than Developer (in general though, the statement may not stand if you compare Silicon Valley but you get the idea, even in other countries, Doctor probably made m…

You forgot: Doctors have a strong professional organization that works for them, handles things like certification, keeps the labor supply favorable and wages high. Developers, on the other hand, swallow the "unions are bad" mentality and compete with each other in the usual "labor race to the bottom".
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