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Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricity Crisis

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Re: Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricity Crisis

#111

Post by marcosdumay »

the_af wrote: post #97
marcosdumay wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit nearer to you, Brazil also surrendered to vulture funds at the 90's, and paid it back with things running very smoothly. During all the time the opposition (current government) was screaming how it was impossible to pay it back just like it's doing in Argentina now. But yes, there are debits that are impossible to pay back. Argentina is too big to get one of those in 90 days, but you may be in that hole - it de…

Thanks for the reply and for the polite disagreement :) > Brazil also surrendered to vulture funds at the 90's, and paid it back with things running very smoothly What was the impact of those policies on the population, especially on the poor? Honest question, this isn't a trick question -- in fact, I'll be honest and say my assumption is that neoliberal policies in Latin America hurt the poor and create the ground f…

The results of controlling inflation and privatizing state companies was that from 94 forward a never seen number of people raised from poverty. Hunger was almost eradicated (yes, before Lula), and wealth inequality started to reduce fast. The result of unwinding those policies is now that people are going back to poverty, also in huge numbers.

I don't have much idea if the net result of renegotiating the external debit was positive or negative. It was mostly a non-event, it is hard to find any impact anywhere. I imagine the magnitude varies with the actual debit size, and at the end of the day, our wasn't that big - despite politicians focusing their discourse on it for a generation.

Anyway, to the extent that it has any meaning, "neoliberalism" also includes focusing on extractivist industries. We didn't practice that part.

Also, there was some effort into fighting corruption and institutionalizing policy. I'd classify it on the poverty reducing side of the balance, so that it murks a bit the effects of monetary stabilization. But then, poverty continued to reduce even late at Lula's government, so I must conclude that the stabilization was more important than this fighting (that wasn't as big as what is happening now).

About the raise of PT, it happened in a period of worldwide economical crisis, and our economy took a hit. The party got very lucky that the world economy recovered fast, and got into a big period of growth, that only ended in 2008.

Re: Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricity Crisis

#112

Post by kafkaesq »

13thLetter wrote: post #103
kafkaesq wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want a larger-scale example, the wholesale transformation of life in the U.S., Britain and much of the rest of the world since the early 1980s -- not strictly Randian, but definitely Rand-inspired -- hasn't exactly gone swimmingly well, either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism Of course radical libertarianism and authoritarian socialism, while both pipe dreams, are basically apples and oranges to on…

If you really want to count up the number of corpses created by "radical libertarianism" and authoritarian socialism, we can just go right ahead and do that. I don't think you'll like the result, though.

Of course "libertarianism" as such -- being even more farcical than nearly any version of socialism -- has never gotten a real toehold anywhere for any length of time, making the comparison moot. That's why I prefer to stick with comparisons of large-scale, real-life ideological systems ("by their deeds shall ye know them"). That is, not the platonic ideals that people (pretend to) believe in; but the actual, real-world systems they compromise for as its "best viable" approximation.

Which is where the body counts, ecological toll and general misery -- domestic and exported -- of the two allegedly opposite systems tend to even out to a far greater degree.

Re: Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricity Crisis

#113

Post by PhasmaFelis »

beatpanda wrote: post #41
hellcow wrote: post #8

Related anecdote: a friend of mine is an engineer that builds and operates glass factories all around the world, mostly producing bottles for beer, wine, and liquor. One of his company's factories was in Venezuela, and while he was there working, Chavez et co decided to nationalize that industry because they were "forcing unfair labor conditions." The company rushed to get every American out of the country before the…

What were the labor conditions like for the workers in the factories your friend was building?

Why is this getting downvoted?

Edit: In for a penny, I suppose: why is this getting downvoted? I don't think "why is this getting downvoted" is a controversial question.

Re: Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricity Crisis

#114

Post by bedhead »

rafaelm wrote: post #36
hellcow wrote: post #8

Related anecdote: a friend of mine is an engineer that builds and operates glass factories all around the world, mostly producing bottles for beer, wine, and liquor. One of his company's factories was in Venezuela, and while he was there working, Chavez et co decided to nationalize that industry because they were "forcing unfair labor conditions." The company rushed to get every American out of the country before the…

That factory was Owens-Illinois? But what is happening here is because of massive corruption at every level of the government. They only nationalized one of the power companies (Electricidad de Caracas, only deals with power in the capital). The rest simply succumbed to corruption. Companies with ties to the military and government officials that sold a bunch of overpriced, refurbished power plants that don't work. T…

The unimaginable corruption (as opposed to our run-of-the-mill corruption) is a symptom of a communistic/dictatorial government.

Re: Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricity Crisis

#115

Post by bedhead »

BurningFrog wrote: post #65

> there is only one word. Corruption The word I would use is Socialism. They are of course related.

Yes. Socialism/communism are inherently unfair and unjust, hence breeding a truly staggering amount corruption (almost by necessity).

Re: Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricity Crisis

#116

Post by mikerichards »

the_af wrote: post #84
SocksCanClose wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and to emphasize, socialism is in fact quite well defined -- especially national socialism (e.g. the Nazi Party of Germany). Here's a good overview of what socialism is, broadly speaking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

The Nazi Party, even though it has "socialism" and "workers" in its title, is not considered to be a form of Socialism (nor, for that matter, to be pro workers). Not that it matters much, but the only mention of Nazism in the Wikipedia article you linked doesn't refer to it as a form of socialism.

The Nazi Party, even though it has "socialism" and "workers" in its title, is not considered to be a form of Socialism (nor, for that matter, to be pro workers)

I hate getting down in the weeds on this, but its "not considered socialism" by those on the left who are embarrassed that the Nazis were pretty much a command economy and have socialism in its name.

Re: Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricity Crisis

#117

Post by oska »

caf wrote: post #109
CyberDildonics wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is anyone installing solar panels on a small or large scale?

The latitude means that Tasmania isn't great for solar, but jutting out into the Southern Ocean as it does means it has good wind resources.

> The latitude means that Tasmania isn't great for solar

Just for comparison:

Berlin is at lattitude 52°31′N.

Marseille is at lattitude 43°18′N.

Hobart is at lattitude 42°53′S.

So Tasmania is more similar to southern Europe in levels of insolation. Not as great as mainland Australia, which has some of the best insolation levels in the world, but still not too bad.

And yes, Tasmania also has great wind resources.

Re: Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricity Crisis

#118

Post by malbs »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #99
malbs wrote: post #40

Here in Tasmania we're not at the shut down stage yet, but it's something no one wants to talk about. They're not asking residents to shutdown yet, but if things continue the way they are, who knows. The major companies/power users are currently being rationed (Aluminium smelters, paper mills etc) The state relies on hydro-electric power, and last year sold off a lot of its "excess" power to Victoria via the Basslink…

Is anyone installing solar panels on a small or large scale?

Solar isn't too bad. As soon as I can buy a couple of Tesla batteries (or equivalent) I'll probably look at getting solar... In the winter the days are short (but nothing like Scandinavian countries), and can go multiple days without seeing the sun, so definitely want a good set of batteries

Re: Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricity Crisis

#119

Post by mikerichards »

kafkaesq wrote: post #112
13thLetter wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really want to count up the number of corpses created by "radical libertarianism" and authoritarian socialism, we can just go right ahead and do that. I don't think you'll like the result, though.

Of course "libertarianism" as such -- being even more farcical than nearly any version of socialism -- has never gotten a real toehold anywhere for any length of time, making the comparison moot. That's why I prefer to stick with comparisons of large-scale, real-life ideological systems ("by their deeds shall ye know them"). That is, not the platonic ideals that people (pretend to) believe in; but the actual, real-wo…

It doesn't matter how you to try to spin it. The vast scale of the horrors inflicted on humanity because of authoritarian socialism is well known and won't just go away.

Re: Venezuela to Shut Down for a Week to Cope With Electricity Crisis

#120

Post by malbs »

malbs wrote: post #40

Here in Tasmania we're not at the shut down stage yet, but it's something no one wants to talk about. They're not asking residents to shutdown yet, but if things continue the way they are, who knows. The major companies/power users are currently being rationed (Aluminium smelters, paper mills etc) The state relies on hydro-electric power, and last year sold off a lot of its "excess" power to Victoria via the Basslink…

I can't edit my original post now, but if anyone is interested in further reading on the power situation here:-

http://www.wattclarity.com.au/2016/03/some-thoughts-on-the-s...

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