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On asking job candidates to code

philcalcado.com

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Re: On asking job candidates to code

#111

Post by bryanrasmussen »

I've only had to do 4 of these, as they aren't that popular in my corner of the earth yet, but I didn't like them, I have a kid and stuff to do and I can't spend my time doing 4 hours extra on the weekend unless it is a job I really, really want.

First out of the 4 I did what was asked but got refused because I didn't clean up the code afterwards ( I thought I'd been cool for demonstrating some lesser known functionalities of the language and API I was dealing with). If I've spent 4 hours doing it, I don't want to spend 2 hours making it really pretty.

Second out of the 4 I misunderstood the instructions so I went in and 'fixed' their code to make it work they way I thought they wanted it ( was maybe too tired since it was late at night after a day of working on a personal project) This was actually a job that was close to one I really, really want.

Third out of the 4 I can't remember anything about it now.

Fourth out of the 4 they really liked what I did and we had a great interview, and then I got turned down because they thought I wasn't really that interested in their company (which was true, I was just fulfilling a job search requirement while getting my startup going)

Aside from that I interviewed at a social analytics startup one time and we ended up talking data mining and they asked me to do a 2 weeks project with them to do a POC of sentiment mining Twitter/Facebook. I gave them what my consulting fees would be, but they seemed really interested in me doing it for free as conditional for pursuing employment there. So I never got to try that coding exercise.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#112

Post by kyleblarson »

jcadam wrote: post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

So you complain about age bias by invoking age bias?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#113

Post by ones_and_zeros »

jcadam wrote: post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

Ageism is a thing in our industry. This may not be it but in other professions it is uncommon for those in the middle of their career to be applying for positions cold, there is usually an intro involved or in the case of the medical fields credentialing does this. As engineers we have poor soft skills that lead to weak professional networks (we think of our selves as mercenaries) and we don't have credentials of any sort.

So it looks a bit weird to them and the thought process is something like "this guy is talented, what is wrong with him that he's a walk on? I'm not willing to find out, pass."

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#114

Post by maxaf »

mtberatwork wrote: post #105
jcadam wrote: post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

> The fact that so many employers treat candidates like this Don't give up. Most established companies aren't run by 20-somethings. If the seniors are already in their mid-20s and lack professionalism, then most likely there are other issues going on at this company. You may have dodged the proverbial bullet.

> You may have dodged the proverbial bullet.

Wish I could upvote this twice! Every rejection I've ever received came with an information-rich sideband that told me more about the prospective employer than an acceptance would have. In at least half of such cases I said to myself: "phew, that was a bullet I was lucky to dodge... imagine how it might feel to work with these people!"

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#115

Post by tptacek »

jasode wrote: post #13
tptacek wrote: post #2

Like the author, having run a hiring program for several years based on coding challenges designed to mimic the work the team does (ie, work sample tests), I do not understand why any tech company does developer hiring in any other way. I particularly like how this team iterated on their uploader problem, abstracting it out to a socket server and providing a test suite for it. Reacting to ambiguity by abstracting the…

> (ie, work sample tests), I do not understand why any tech company does developer hiring in any other way. Because every method of hiring has its own biases and tradeoffs. Requiring work samples biases against programmers who aren't interested in doing a "homework assignment". For example, I don't enjoy whiteboard interviews but I'd rather write some fragments in front of the interviewer and "think out loud" instead…

The "no homework" thing is such a red herring.

Companies that do work samples minimize on-site coding interviews, because the whole point of offsite work sample testing is that most candidates can't provide an accurate picture of their aptitude in an on-site coding interview.

No interviewing software developer prefers an extra 6 hours of on-site interview to an off-site coding challenge.

The problem developers have with "homework problems" is really a problem with bullshit companies that won't provide timely feedback on their submission. Nobody wants to do homework that goes into a black hole, only to find out 6 months later that they were in consideration for the role. That's a problem with all hiring companies, and it is orthogonal to the structure of the interview itself.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#116

Post by dpeck »

orng wrote: post #108
mikeash wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No former employer is going to say "this guy can't program, don't hire him" for fear of getting sued. Co-workers might be friends who are covering for you, or just genuinely have no idea of your actual ability. Taking up hours of a candidate's time is excessive, but it seems reasonable to ask for some demonstration of your ability, when so many candidates simply cannot code.

> Taking up hours of a candidate's time is excessive, but it seems reasonable to ask for some demonstration of your ability, when so many candidates simply cannot code. So why not simply ask technical questions during an interview? I'd think you'd be able to determine whether or not someone know what he is talking about by simply asking him a few questions on the matter.

Because there are plenty of people who can regurgitate things but not be able to do much with it. I've seen it with CS grads from good schools, its disconcerting and confusing.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#117

Post by sarciszewski »

jasode wrote: post #85
patio11 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Speaking in personal capacity here.) There exists a continuum of hiring practices which place more or less burden upon candidates. I would encourage HNers with input into their company hiring practices to choose less burdensome approaches over more burdensome approaches, particularly when less burdensome approaches also yield additional signal about ability. A thing you can expect to be asked in 2016: you can expect…

>For some candidates, this will involve more than 16 hours on planes, a (minimally) overnight stay in a business hotel, and six solid hours of interviews in the course of an 8~10 hour day. This requires minimally 2~3 days of these candidates' lives. ... To put it mildly: it is not guaranteed that if you're flown out you will get an offer. ..., and you replace the onsite with even an excessively long project, that's a…

> All true but my observation is that the companies that put candidates through multi-day-out-of-town interview processes can afford to miss out on the candidates that can't do it.

All companies can afford to waste less money than they need too.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#118

Post by NotSammyHagar »

jcadam wrote: post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

No feedback is extremely irritating, but common. I know a lot of companies are afraid to give feedback because they don't want to get sued. I worked at a startup where we did give people feedback, immediately, and they were often very surprised. Companies may reject people who are otherwise a technical match for lots of reasons - maybe there was some personality quirk of the interviewer where he didn't like you. It's also hard to hire someone who is smarter than you. And of course your unfortunate experience is just one anecdote. I hope you found another job that evaluated you better.

My current company was getting some poor candidates who passed the phone screen (the phone screen was the usual 1 hour code something in a google docs while we both look at it) type of screen. So we added a homework problem that takes a couple of hours to pull off. I found when I interviewed I had no interest in coding or following each companies stupid and arbitrary interview process. I do worry that it's too much of a pointless pain - but we have been able to reject a few people at the "homework" stage because they were just atrocious.

If someone has been a public github contributor, that should be even better than a homework problem.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#120

Post by dpeck »

BBlarat wrote: post #106

I like Jeff Atwoods approach[0], hire the candidate for a short project (2-3 weeks) let the candidate a feel for the product and team while getting paid. And at the same time let the team get to know the candidate. I would love to go through a hiring process like that :) [0] http://blog.codinghorror.com/we-hire-the-best-just-like-ever...

This doesn't work for people already in stable jobs.
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