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Hidden motors for road bikes

cyclingtips.com

111–120 of 149 posts

Re: Hidden motors for road bikes

#111

There are two videos on Youtube that have been regarded by bike fans as suspicous. I will let HN readers make their own minds up! https://youtu.be/8Nd13ARuvVE?t=3m35s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ideiS-6gBAc I would love to hear smart people's thoughts!

Regarding the first clip: Cancellara is the greatest time triallist in the history of cycling. Putting out immense amounts of power from a seated position is his raison d'etre. Regarding the second: That section of road is steep and banked. After Hesjedal unclips his right foot, the only points of contact between the bicycle and the road are the rear tyre and the rubberised hood on his brake lever. The bicycle is pul…

>The bicycle is pulled downhill by gravity, but rotates around the brake hood

Not convinced. The bike is close to stationary after the fall, then turns a full 180 and hits the next cyclist with quite a bit of force. Notice also that the back while is in constant contact with the road as it makes that 180 degree turn. Doesn't look gravity driven to me at all...

Re: Hidden motors for road bikes

#112

There are two videos on Youtube that have been regarded by bike fans as suspicous. I will let HN readers make their own minds up! https://youtu.be/8Nd13ARuvVE?t=3m35s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ideiS-6gBAc I would love to hear smart people's thoughts!

Regarding the first clip: Cancellara is the greatest time triallist in the history of cycling. Putting out immense amounts of power from a seated position is his raison d'etre. Regarding the second: That section of road is steep and banked. After Hesjedal unclips his right foot, the only points of contact between the bicycle and the road are the rear tyre and the rubberised hood on his brake lever. The bicycle is pul…

An even simpler explanation for the second clip is that a fast-rotating wheel has a decent amount of rotational inertia.

https://www.instagram.com/p/sh0fSPirPW/?modal=true

Re: Hidden motors for road bikes

#113
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the first clip: Cancellara is the greatest time triallist in the history of cycling. Putting out immense amounts of power from a seated position is his raison d'etre. Regarding the second: That section of road is steep and banked. After Hesjedal unclips his right foot, the only points of contact between the bicycle and the road are the rear tyre and the rubberised hood on his brake lever. The bicycle is pul…

>The bicycle is pulled downhill by gravity, but rotates around the brake hood Not convinced. The bike is close to stationary after the fall, then turns a full 180 and hits the next cyclist with quite a bit of force. Notice also that the back while is in constant contact with the road as it makes that 180 degree turn. Doesn't look gravity driven to me at all...

As I replied to the grandparent, rotating wheels carry enough rotational inertia to spin a lightweight bike.

https://www.instagram.com/p/sh0fSPirPW/?modal=true

Re: Hidden motors for road bikes

#114

There are two videos on Youtube that have been regarded by bike fans as suspicous. I will let HN readers make their own minds up! https://youtu.be/8Nd13ARuvVE?t=3m35s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ideiS-6gBAc I would love to hear smart people's thoughts!

The Cancellara video looks a little odd just because of the dynamics of bike racing. If you interpret the video as Cancellara pulling away from other pros like that with everyone going full effort, it looks super human. In reality though, Cancellara pulls away from the group so quickly at 3:35 (the time you linked) because no one is trying to go with him at that moment.

He's attacking with ~50km left, which is far enough from the finish at a major one-day race (Paris-Roubaix here) that the chances of the main group reeling him back in are pretty high (he did go on to win that day). As another rider in that group, you have two options when you see someone attack: A) try to go with Cancellara's move and hope that you can beat him one on one (unlikely, Cancellara is one of the all time greats and 2010 was a year of peak form for him), or B) stay with the pack and hope that you can collectively haul him back later in the race (now you've saved your own energy and Cancellara has spent some of his).

Look at the lead rider in the pack (white jersey, blue shorts) at 3:46 as Cancellara goes past him. You can see him look back at the other riders in the group. He's checking to see if anyone else is deciding to do with Cancellara. No one else moves, so they maintain a steady pace, hoping to bring him back with option B.

In the other video, Hesjedal's bike spins because of the road gradient and momentum in his still spinning wheel hitting the road as he stands up. Hard to see the slope of the road from the camera angle but they are on a steep descent.

Mechanical doping is definitely a technological possibility and the UCI is starting to test bikes. That said, the "bike fans" who point to these videos out as evidence are conspiracy theorists. The explanations I wrote above are IMO pretty apparent to someone who has raced bikes before, but I can see how they look odd to a layman observer or a non-competitive cyclist (in the case of the Cancellara video especially).

Edit: the race I was referring to was actually Paris-Roubaix, not Flanders. This article has some pretty good post-race interview commentary from Boonen and Cancellara himself about how the effort to chase him down sputtered because of a lack of cooperation, not ability: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/7578607...

Re: Hidden motors for road bikes

#115
post #110
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about light resistance in the bearings? I think you are (forgive me if I'm wrong), but that doesn't matter. That is not an example of the wheel "doing work". That wheel in the video looked stopped at the end of the crash, and even if it wasn't stopped, the video looks really awkward. Sure, his crash started at 30mph, but ended at 0, and his wheel looks to be firmly placed on the ground, immobile. For…

This is not my area of expertise, but to get things started, I went to a site[0] and looked up some formulas and specs, and came up with: outside circumference of wheel ~2200mm (700c wheel w/ tire) 30 mph == 0.5 mpm (Miles per minute). 0.5 mile == 804500mm a 2200mm circumference will need to roll ~365.68 times to cover that distance. If that distance is covered in 1 minute, that means 365.68 rotations per minute. Thi…

Or simpler, you can just run the experiment yourself.

https://www.instagram.com/p/sh0fSPirPW/?modal=true

Re: Hidden motors for road bikes

#116
post #110
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about light resistance in the bearings? I think you are (forgive me if I'm wrong), but that doesn't matter. That is not an example of the wheel "doing work". That wheel in the video looked stopped at the end of the crash, and even if it wasn't stopped, the video looks really awkward. Sure, his crash started at 30mph, but ended at 0, and his wheel looks to be firmly placed on the ground, immobile. For…

This is not my area of expertise, but to get things started, I went to a site[0] and looked up some formulas and specs, and came up with: outside circumference of wheel ~2200mm (700c wheel w/ tire) 30 mph == 0.5 mpm (Miles per minute). 0.5 mile == 804500mm a 2200mm circumference will need to roll ~365.68 times to cover that distance. If that distance is covered in 1 minute, that means 365.68 rotations per minute. Thi…

60 watts is definitely sufficient to power a bike like that. I know I produce 50-80 pedaling at a "rest" pace, maybe 10-12 mph. Assuming your math is correct, it seems sensible that a wheel at 30 mph could move the bike. It seems like the biggest assumption here is that the wheel wasn't stopped in the crash and that it hovered above the ground, or sustained sufficient RPMs it was slowed.

Re: Hidden motors for road bikes

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

250 watts is an output a fairly average amateur racer will produce at threshold (where threshold is their one-hour max sustained effort). The pros are significantly higher than that (estimated 350W or more for the latest batch of 1-hour records). But, an extra 100 watts for even a few seconds can make a significant difference. In cycling, staying in the draft is a major factor. If that short burst of assistance helps…

The one hour record is actually about 470W from Wiggins. (Though not a record of power for a single hour, just distance ridden on a track in one hour. But it ends up measuring more or less the same.)

Damn, the 350w was Jensie's estimated output (or maybe it was 375?). I knew Wiggins went substantially faster, but didn't realize it translated to that much more power. It's really nuts what these guys can do.

Re: Hidden motors for road bikes

#118
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing. No one to date has actually been caught using one. The banned woman was caught having one, on a spare bike in the pit. She claims it's owned by a friend (who corroborated) and that her mechanics mistakenly put it in the pit, etc.. it's a pretty shaky story, but the fact remains they have never actually caught someone using one during a race. There's a large number of people who think it just wouldn'…

There is no forced cadence. The motor is not fixed at a particular RPM; if the motor were unloaded, it would spin a lot faster than it does. It supplies a certain amount of power, and the bike hits a certain ground speed, and through the gear ratio, that determines the motor's speed. If you only want to go that fast, then you don't have to crank the pedals, and it's awkward. However, you can crank the pedals to go ev…

This is a great description of why motors can make a big difference in racing. Even small differences in power output can make a big difference in an elite race where so little can mean the difference between winning and not. It's easy to imagine using a tiny motor (much smaller than the one mentioned in the article) could make the difference between winning and being an also ran.

However I have to nitpick on one point:

"Even a 2.5W power boost could be a game changer. If your muscles put out 250W, 2.5W is 1% more, which is significant. It's about 36 seconds shaved off a one hour haul."

Air resistance is one the most significant factor affecting riders at race speeds, and its force increases at a much greater than linear rate. You'd need about 3% more power in your example to save 36 seconds. In a flat time trial over one hour, 1% extra power would actually save you closer to 12 seconds. That said, the Tour de France has been won by less.

Re: Hidden motors for road bikes

#119
Question : why do people cheat?

Saying it is in the human nature is laughable. I see no one cheating at being poor sick, handicapped or being lazy.

People only cheat because they don't care about winning for themselves. They have no personalities and are lost in the recognition of a mindless crowd as a substitute to self esteem.

We have to focus society on individual realization to fight efficiently against hidden motors. Technical means of cheating are just a side problem.

Maybe we should forbid professional competition to remove the incentive of cheating.

Re: Hidden motors for road bikes

#120
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's Cancellara winning Strade Bianche this past Sunday: https://youtu.be/X8YJH23dIAc I think it looks pretty similar in terms of terrain, style, and effort, and it was a win over a tough field. With all the concern about mechanical doping, they checked his bike and there was no motor in it. Of course there's no way to know what happened in 2010 for sure, but he has shown he doesn't need a motor.

I remember watching Miguel Indurain blow past great climbers without leaving the saddle during the 1990's. His resting heart rate was recorded at 28 beats per minute. The best cyclists are outliers among outliers.

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