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The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#111

Post by mistermann »

random_upvoter wrote: post #82
Houshalter wrote: post #7

They literally named it Skynet. They have an evil sense of humor. Actually using machine learning to detect terrorists isn't a terrible idea. But you are going to get an error rate, and probably a high one in the noisy real world. Maybe only 50% of the people you detect are actually terrorists. Maybe it's even worse than that. We can't even test it because there is no validation set and unreliable labels. The reasona…

Reading discussions on drone strikes makes you wonder what ever happened to pacifism. This whole idea that you can just go around other countries killing people -- even if they intend on killing you, and even if you would be able to hit the right target 100% of the time-- it's just old. It's primitive. And that is not to blame the USA. At this point in history humanity, as a collective, has the maturity of an 11 year…

Couldn't agree more......just reading the front page of /r/all these days makes me want to drop out of society and move deep into the forest. I mean just take one example, the Flint water crisis - this is so unimaginably corrupt (is that even the right word) that it blows my mind. How do people knowingly do such things, how do we have no checks and balances in the system, how can we justify not sending several people to jail for a very long time?

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#112

Post by arca_vorago »

hodwik wrote: post #104
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A drone strike typically kills identified terrorist targets but also unidentified targets. The trick is that as long as bystanding casualities (also children yes - or as the drone operators call them "fun sized terrorists") have not been identified they're automatically counted as terrorists. (see also https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/ ) I don't think now that the beast has been unleashed it can be controlled or…

We need a military. All states do -- its part of their duty to their citizenry. The problem in the US is that our hippy-run academia are driving the smart people out of jobs in the military (and police force for that matter), and it's putting us in a terrible position. The only way to fix it is for smart people to start joining the military again.

This is absolute bullshit. The problem is that we need a military that is actually going to man the fuck up when an O-5+ decides to push some unconstitutional program on the people.

What has happened isnt that hippy academia is jacking up the military, but rather that the military has been kicking out the kind of people who arent afraid to tell truth to power, and are increasingly making choices and then only hiring people who tell them those choices are good and what they want to hear.

I have spent the majority of my free time since I got out trying to understand what the fuck is going on here, and the reality is that our generals failed our military by allowing the neocons to push us into wars for dubious reasons. Thats even counting the real reasons no one talks about, such as upcoming resource wars and a return to a tripolar world.

No, the real problem is that we have barely had a real president since the new world order bunch assassinated JFK (and RFK), because that was a very clear message to any POTUS willing to actually stand up. (Dont get me wrong, JFK was far from perfect...)

We now have institutional corruption from the top down in every single branch of government, including the famed fourth estate which has been turned into stenographers weekly. Corruption and incompetence are running rampant, and are acting as a cover for the malicious string pullers (Hanlons razor is a logical fallacy!)

So no, its not that the goddamn hippies have fucked up the military, its much closer to the military and its propoganda programs have so far infiltrated academia that its a lifeless shell of what it could and should be in this internet age.

Keep in mind though, its the military who has pushed this though. While the three letters have carried out operations similar to mockingbird (thank you church comittee), its the globalist new world order group who have pushed it on their controlled government puppets. (Read up on what Norman Dodd found during the Reese Committee for more info)

Yes, you are correct we need a smarter military, but just having "smart people" join up wont do it. You need change from the POTUS down, because beleive you me, we have turned mental deconstruction and reconstruction into an art form.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#113

Post by dalke »

hodwik wrote: post #104
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A drone strike typically kills identified terrorist targets but also unidentified targets. The trick is that as long as bystanding casualities (also children yes - or as the drone operators call them "fun sized terrorists") have not been identified they're automatically counted as terrorists. (see also https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/ ) I don't think now that the beast has been unleashed it can be controlled or…

We need a military. All states do -- its part of their duty to their citizenry. The problem in the US is that our hippy-run academia are driving the smart people out of jobs in the military (and police force for that matter), and it's putting us in a terrible position. The only way to fix it is for smart people to start joining the military again.

Costa Rica doesn't have a military. (See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_arme... .)

How has that country failed in its duty to the citizenry?

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#114

Post by hartpuff »

hodwik wrote: post #104
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A drone strike typically kills identified terrorist targets but also unidentified targets. The trick is that as long as bystanding casualities (also children yes - or as the drone operators call them "fun sized terrorists") have not been identified they're automatically counted as terrorists. (see also https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/ ) I don't think now that the beast has been unleashed it can be controlled or…

We need a military. All states do -- its part of their duty to their citizenry. The problem in the US is that our hippy-run academia are driving the smart people out of jobs in the military (and police force for that matter), and it's putting us in a terrible position. The only way to fix it is for smart people to start joining the military again.

I thought the problem is that, 25 years after its only serious opponent in the world disappeared, the US spends as much on the military as the next 7 countries - five of which are US allies - combined.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#116

Post by cafard »

hodwik wrote: post #104
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A drone strike typically kills identified terrorist targets but also unidentified targets. The trick is that as long as bystanding casualities (also children yes - or as the drone operators call them "fun sized terrorists") have not been identified they're automatically counted as terrorists. (see also https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/ ) I don't think now that the beast has been unleashed it can be controlled or…

We need a military. All states do -- its part of their duty to their citizenry. The problem in the US is that our hippy-run academia are driving the smart people out of jobs in the military (and police force for that matter), and it's putting us in a terrible position. The only way to fix it is for smart people to start joining the military again.

I thought that only the military system--promotion boards courts martial--could drive anyone out of the military.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#117

Post by alanwatts »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #103
Houshalter wrote: post #7

They literally named it Skynet. They have an evil sense of humor. Actually using machine learning to detect terrorists isn't a terrible idea. But you are going to get an error rate, and probably a high one in the noisy real world. Maybe only 50% of the people you detect are actually terrorists. Maybe it's even worse than that. We can't even test it because there is no validation set and unreliable labels. The reasona…

A drone strike typically kills identified terrorist targets but also unidentified targets. The trick is that as long as bystanding casualities (also children yes - or as the drone operators call them "fun sized terrorists") have not been identified they're automatically counted as terrorists. (see also https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/ ) I don't think now that the beast has been unleashed it can be controlled or…

Dr. King was considered a radical by the system but I will still leave this here:

>The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. ... Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

Where Do We Go from Here : Chaos or Community? (1967)

http://www.amazon.com/Where-Do-We-Here-Community/dp/08070006...

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#118

Post by alanwatts »

So yes, a state would not be much of a state without some form of military. But why do we need separate states?

Edit: this is a genuine question about the practicality of a concept (the "nation-state") that was invented during the Gutenberg era of the printing press, and how such a concept has become impractical in the age of instantaneous international interconnectivity and economic globalization.

Downvoters: How are arbitrary divisions drawn on a map anything but counterproductive to synergy and efficiency in the age of globalization?

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#119

Post by tobbyb »

The US, UK response to terrorism is so disproportional, odious and sinister one wonders whether this is infant a 'response' or something far more evil cooking below the surface.

This kind of technology necessitates mass surveillance, and offers you little more beyond the faint possibility that crime can be predicted. This is bogus science.

If you let your mind entertain the idea you can predict crime, then you are already at the thresh hold of a stifling surveillance state. And why are we even assassinating people. What happens to due process? One by one all these fundamental principles are set aside, massive and dubious mass surveillance infrastructures are being built, doublespeak is comically rampant.

One can begin to understand Snowden's urgent need to act, but what about the moral compass of all the people in the NSA and who support the US and UK security apparatus? People need to act. Surely they cannot suddenly subscribe to values we have aggressively demonized for more than 100 years.

Who would have thought that the US and UK are now the rogue states and other countries who are far more secure and sure about their politics need to begin to isolate themselves from these dangerous totalitarian instincts.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#120

Post by SEJeff »

SeanDav wrote: post #15
nl wrote: post #9

This story is stupid. I'm sorry. No fan of the NSA, but the premise behind it is completely ridiculous. There is zero evidence of the repeatably asserted idea that the list this tool generates is any kind of kill list. It's a tool that generates indicators of people that may be worth looking at when trying to find couriers. That's a very specific subgroup of terrorists, and I find it entirely unsurprising that a jour…

You may of course be right, I would find it surprising in the extreme if people were killed based purely on output of an algorithm. However we have no assurance that this tool was not used to generate kill targets without any human input. The NSA operates without any meaningful oversight and if they decided to use algorithms to generate kill targets, they would go right ahead and do it.

The thing is that the NSA doesn't kill people. The CIA and DoD run the drone program, and they both do their own due dilligence (how good is another conversation altogether) before carrying out their strikes. Also, most strikes have to be authorized from the top, up to and including the secretary of defense and the president.
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