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For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

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Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#111

Post by logfromblammo »

busterarm wrote: post #87
true_religion wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's orthogonal to the article. Under a system designed to the lowest common denominator, those on the low end have to put X amount of effort in order to pass. Those who are gifted have to put in X-Y effort where Y can almost nearly equal X (leading to kids not ever learning how to study). The Swedish system basically begins with the proposition that all students should put out X effort. Gifted children get m…

It's an interesting idea and I agree with the argument. Having been one of those 'gifted children' and gone to gifted schools where I wasn't challenged, I think this is a good idea. I basically never had to put any effort in until my last year of high school and completely breezed through my education. Once I hit university and couldn't get away with that anymore, I was totally unequipped to handle continuing my educ…

I breezed through university. I might have worked a little harder to get a 4.0, but I knew even then that barely anyone outside of academia cares about GPA, and that I didn't want to be an academic. So I did the math, and I even made some strategic decisions to not complete some graded assignments in my last year. I'm not particularly challenged at work now, either.

I'm not a very good employee. I have on several occasions had one of my bosses tell me not to do more than the minimum effort. Don't improvise. The company doesn't get paid more for excellence. Just do as you're told. He who pays the piper calls the tune, and that guy wants "Rock and Roll Part 2" by Gary Glitter (aka the Hey Song) for the 50th time in a row rather than whatever crap it is that you would prefer to play.

I feel like I could accomplish very difficult tasks, but I also feel that the effort would not only go unrewarded, but that other people would actively resent me for doing them.

If society loved genius, it would pay more for it. I'm not even a genius. I'm either slightly smarter than the median, or just egotistical enough to think that I am. But now I'm just a mediocre, run-of-the-mill software professional on paper, because that's what companies around here are willing to pay for, and so I eased off my throttle far enough to pretend to be that for them. Being on HN helps a lot when I'm just filling a seat.

Naturally, this hasn't exactly produced a healthy relationship between me and the rest of society.

I think that maybe schools don't want to produce geniuses, because they are very disruptive, and hard to please, and it's harder to keep them in line with a load of BS. There may actually be a tiny kernel of truth in the conspiracy theory that public schooling intentionally dumbs down the smartest students or endlessly occupies them with useless busy work, even as it trains up the others to be more useful as workers.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#112

Post by [deleted] »

willholloway wrote: post #67
clentaminator wrote: post #12

Ah yes, the monthly link to an article about intelligent/gifted children and the troubles their talents cause them, leading to all the self-proclaimed gifted HNers coming out of the woodwork declaiming "Me too! Me too! Finally someone who understands me!". Not dismissing the article itself, but it's definitely a pattern on HN.

You actually are dismissing the article itself, and the experiences of all the HNers that have experienced what it talks about firsthand. Your phrase "self-proclaimed gifted" is outright dismissive. This is a natural human reaction. The reminder of the existence of people smarter than ourselves often results in narcissistic injury, it feels bad, it can hurt. It's the reason gifted education is such a low and unpopula…

[deleted]

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#113

Post by Lawtonfogle »

rotw wrote: post #100
willholloway wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You actually are dismissing the article itself, and the experiences of all the HNers that have experienced what it talks about firsthand. Your phrase "self-proclaimed gifted" is outright dismissive. This is a natural human reaction. The reminder of the existence of people smarter than ourselves often results in narcissistic injury, it feels bad, it can hurt. It's the reason gifted education is such a low and unpopula…

Your comment is exactly the attitude the person you were replying to was mocking. What that person saying is that a lot of reasonably intelligent people who are nowhere near geniuses like to think of themselves as geniuses as a form of narcissistic self-flattery. For people good at math, sciences and computing and other occupations considered "nerdy", capability in these fields and stereotypes of intelligence associa…

>Your comment is exactly the attitude the person you were replying to was mocking.

What is being mocked is the attitude we should care for people? Think about that for a second.

>What that person saying is that a lot of reasonably intelligent people who are nowhere near geniuses like to think of themselves as geniuses as a form of narcissistic self-flattery.

Yet the parent comment didn't have that in it. How can the grandparent be mocking the parent if the grandparent is mocking those who chime in 'me too' while the parent doesn't do that?

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#115

Post by delineator »

The article discusses people who may have a trait Dr Elaine Aron calls "highly sensitive". She has been researching the highly sensitive since 1991.

She says the trait is normal. It is found in 15 to 20% of the population. She writes:

"While being easily overstimulated and aware of subtle little things may be what most parents notice first about their Highly Sensitive Child, depth of processing is really the underlying trait."

See her 2014 summary of scientific research on highly sensitive children here: http://hsperson.com/pdf/Authors_note_HSC.pdf

For more information see Dr Aron's website here: http://hsperson.com/

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#116

Post by bonesmoses »

SixSigma wrote: post #86
byuu wrote: post #85

I could say a lot about the quality of education: the lack of a challenge, the boringness of the one-size-fits-all curriculum, etc. But boredom isn't that big of a deal. I made up for that by studying what I wanted to outside of school, instead of doing homework. Even with the vindictive teachers that made homework 30% of the final grade, it was still cakewalk to pass their classes without doing a single assignment.…

If it makes you feel any better, if you fight back you will get hit harder.

Potentially. I deterred many bullies because I simply didn't give any fucks. I grew up pretty poor and moved a lot, so I was always the new kid, and I also stood out because I usually immediately rose to the top of the class. That usually painted a target on my chest, but it didn't last long.

The few times I was bullied was always the first few weeks after I arrived, and they quickly found out I would fight back pretty aggressively. Was that a "being poor" thing? Was it my notorious "punched a kid in the face for cutting in front of me in line when I was five" temper? Was it simply because I wasn't an "easy" mark?

I can't rightfully say, but one of those things definitely reduced my propensity for being the target of bullies.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#117

Post by JohnBooty »

goodJobWalrus wrote: post #66
true_religion wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's orthogonal to the article. Under a system designed to the lowest common denominator, those on the low end have to put X amount of effort in order to pass. Those who are gifted have to put in X-Y effort where Y can almost nearly equal X (leading to kids not ever learning how to study). The Swedish system basically begins with the proposition that all students should put out X effort. Gifted children get m…

What does it take to get into a gifted class in the US? Where I grew up, anyone can apply for these schools (not everyone gets in of course).

In my public school system, in the suburbs of Philadelphia, admission to the gifted program was largely based on the results of IQ testing.

That was back in the 1980s and 1990s; not sure how things have changed.

I have to say... I thought our school system did a good job with gifted students. We had some classes with other gifted kids and a lot of classes with the school's general population. We weren't treated as elite freaks or anything, were never told we were "better", and all in all I think they did it right.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#119

Post by Joeboy »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #109
clentaminator wrote: post #12

Ah yes, the monthly link to an article about intelligent/gifted children and the troubles their talents cause them, leading to all the self-proclaimed gifted HNers coming out of the woodwork declaiming "Me too! Me too! Finally someone who understands me!". Not dismissing the article itself, but it's definitely a pattern on HN.

>self-proclaimed gifted HNers And if they had actually brought any evidence other than their own self claim, imagine how they would've been treated. No way to win except to shut up and pretend to be normal... one of the most depressing lessons I have learned is that all the social ills of grade school do not disappear when you graduate; they merge into the fabric of daily life.

> one of the most depressing lessons I have learned is that all the social ills of grade school do not disappear when you graduate; they merge into the fabric of daily life.

For what it's worth I've learned the opposite. Outside of a mass-incarceration type environment, people are mostly pretty OK. It took me way too long to work that out after I left school.

Re: For gifted children, being intelligent can have dark implications (2015)

#120

Post by nickpeterson »

tzs wrote: post #52
baldfat wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People miss the point. Intelligence isn't a gift for most people it is just a curse that you have to over come.

See "The Simpsons" episode BABF22, "HOMЯ", for an hilarious exploration of this theme. In that episode, it is discovered that Homer's IQ was drastically lowered by an untreated childhood mishap. The damage is fixed, and Homer becomes much more intelligent than most of the other inhabitants of Springfield and it makes his life miserable, leading him to lament "is there no place for the man with the 105 IQ?" and purpos…

hmm, I haven't seen this episode, but it feels like it was a spoof on the novella 'Flowers for Algernon', a somewhat heart-wrenching story young children tend to be subjected to.
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