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Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

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Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss) I think FOSS should be considered, but more important is that they study which software gets the best results and pay for that if needed. Also, let's remember that FOSS often is not user-friendly and most students have nothing close to the typical aptitude found on HN, nor the interest, nor the expertise and years of experience. Most will not grow u…

O-O_language + $free_IDE is good enough for the vast majority of educational programming. There are free gui "intro to intro to programming" drag + drop IDEs/teaching tools available as well. IMO there is no need to pay for programming related software in an educational environment

Have you seen any research on this subject, or do you have expertise with teaching K-12?

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#112
I'm transferring to a UC in computer science soon. This is the last year in which computer science will not be considered an "impacted major" at my school. A sign of the times. Recently everyone's been talking about making CS mandatory in high school. And looking around on the web I see that some of the resources for learning computer science are very nice indeed. Is it petty to be worried that there will soon be so many computer science people in the world that I wont be able to make a living in computer science? I feel like a hypocrite for being an advocate for single payer healthcare, which is a step forward but might destroy a lot of jobs in the insurance business, and simultaneously hoping that computer science remains somewhat exclusive.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#113

The real problem is not computer science. Everyone in the United States cannot be a programmer - its going to lead to the same problem we have with law, business, etc. Too many graduates leading to labour oversupply. Government will always be slower to respond then markets. So even though right now there is a shortage of programmers - it might not be the case once these student's graduate. So Govt is always one step…

> Everyone in the United States cannot be a programmer - its going to lead to the same problem we have with law, business, etc. Too many graduates leading to labour oversupply.

This is misunderstanding the future state of the programming professions of the future. This is understandable, since you're merely projecting the current state forward, but things will almost certainly change.

Up until now, the majority of programming jobs have been filled by people trained in CS and we've had to learn whatever disciplines which we're asked to apply our programming discipline to. But as we're able to layer more and more abstractions on top of the machines that do our computing, programming will become much more accessible and the situation will change. In the future, the majority of programming will be done by domain experts who learn enough programming discipline to automate their field. There will always be a small, niche of core CS practitioners that advance the state of the art of the tools used at the higher levels. But they will be that will be a very small percentage of the workforce.

The important thing isn't that we create more CS graduates. That will cause the problems you foresee. What we need to do is ensure that all graduates outside of CS are trained in basic computer programming.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#114
Can anybody explain to me this push for everyone to be a programmer? Is there a belief floating out there that everyone in 10-20 years is going to have to know how to program? I just don't understand it. Who's going to teach computer science to kids? How many software devs do you know how quit their jobs to teach at a high school? If not them, who's qualified to teach this subject?

This will ultimately end up with unqualified teachers teaching computer science while kids are fucking around and playing computer games. What an atrocious waste of money. Why not spend $4B to fix piss-poor American education system so that we can produce graduates who are ready for college and not trying to catch up taking Algebra I or basic reading /English.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#115

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would…

Most people are not going to be novelists, but all students learn to write. Most people are not going to be mathematicians, but they all learn basic math. Sure, if you are bad at it, it will frustrate you. Go talk to any 10 year old and you will find this is already true for existing subject. Pick any subject - learning it in school doesn't mean you are going to do it for a career, but it is part of education so that…

In an average person's day to day life they will read and write things. They will also have the opportunity to perform basic math. Sales, left over change, how much time is left. They may even use a computer. But the average person will never even come close to programming at all. Let alone on a regular basis. I think it is important to have it available. It might be worth introducing it as a small subject. But programming is not easy, and not useful enough to teach as a basic subject

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#116

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

This is more fitting with the US style of "just toss money at it" philosophy. Spending money effectively is hard, but the US has absurd amounts so just try to outspend the inefficiency instead.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#117

Can anybody explain to me this push for everyone to be a programmer? Is there a belief floating out there that everyone in 10-20 years is going to have to know how to program? I just don't understand it. Who's going to teach computer science to kids? How many software devs do you know how quit their jobs to teach at a high school? If not them, who's qualified to teach this subject? This will ultimately end up with un…

My guess is for the same reasons as other high school topic: so you can understand how the world around you works, and so you can get a taste of what you might want to study full time in college and feel prepared for it.

To emphasize the second point, I only started programming in college sophomore year due to a requirement in my original major, and would have been too intimidated to take it otherwise thanks to all the other kids that had learned before college (a situation unique to CS). Yet now as a developer I earn more than me or my parents could ever have dreamed, just because my college happened to require I take the course.

I know others who were too intimidated and weren't forced into it. What if they'd tried it out in high school? Maybe they too would have a shot at what is arguably among the best careers in the US (good pay / reasonably low stress / low cost of entry).

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people are not going to be novelists, but all students learn to write. Most people are not going to be mathematicians, but they all learn basic math. Sure, if you are bad at it, it will frustrate you. Go talk to any 10 year old and you will find this is already true for existing subject. Pick any subject - learning it in school doesn't mean you are going to do it for a career, but it is part of education so that…

In an average person's day to day life they will read and write things. They will also have the opportunity to perform basic math. Sales, left over change, how much time is left. They may even use a computer. But the average person will never even come close to programming at all. Let alone on a regular basis. I think it is important to have it available. It might be worth introducing it as a small subject. But progr…

I'm of the opinion the average person doesn't do any program because they have no idea how it can help because they have no experience doing any. Its hard to use a tool to do something if you have no idea what the tool is even capable of.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people are not going to be novelists, but all students learn to write. Most people are not going to be mathematicians, but they all learn basic math. Sure, if you are bad at it, it will frustrate you. Go talk to any 10 year old and you will find this is already true for existing subject. Pick any subject - learning it in school doesn't mean you are going to do it for a career, but it is part of education so that…

In an average person's day to day life they will read and write things. They will also have the opportunity to perform basic math. Sales, left over change, how much time is left. They may even use a computer. But the average person will never even come close to programming at all. Let alone on a regular basis. I think it is important to have it available. It might be worth introducing it as a small subject. But progr…

Think about all the little things that you do with your computers that non-technical people wouldn't do. If you couldn't do math you would have to trust that your change was correct or derive some counting based mechanism. If you couldn't write or read you would need to rely on memorizing things or ask people who could.

While it might not be "real" programming I would suggest that basic exposure to programming in school would make the following activities (not limited to them obviously) more accessible to the population and it would be a Good Thing (tm)

* Figuring out why their computer/gadget isn't working

* Writing small scripts and/or using scripty features like functions in Excel

* Be a more informed customer of technology products

* Find software to address solved problems (just knowing to look is half the battle here)

* Better understand URLs (improve computer security, know that it's a stupid listicle and don't bother clicking, etc)

I'm sure there's more good things and would love to hear others. I tried to keep them on the same order as being able to read the fine print or balance a checkbook style benefits since we've decided that education shouldn't imply to children that they could grow up to be authors or mathematicians (kidding!).

It's not an easy subject at all but even just understanding the basics are hugely helpful in terms of un-abstracting the machines we use every day. I think it's hard to overestimate how much easier life is when you can address more of your own problems.

Let's say there's a program that takes a list of things and prints envelopes or something. If you or I submit the list and it keeps dying on me, but another list worked fine, I'll probably check the list that doesn't work. Hm. Oh look, there's an umlaut in this guy's name, maybe it doesn't accept unicode [s/ü/u, try again].... awesome, it works.

You only need to have been exposed to loops and character encoding and bad input to have that be your response instead of "GAH! THE MEAN PROGRAM HATES ME!".

It's a contrived and simplistic example but just watching my family around technology is kind of fascinating and sad because there is definitely a kind of mental tax or anxiety about what they perceive to be the pernicious beyond-control nature of their devices. Maybe that's actually the best reason to expose kids to programming: in order to avoid a sense of helplessness and that these machines are controlled by magic wielded by others. Given the overwhelming influence that programs are playing in people's lives it almost seems unfair not to expose people to the basic mechanics of how they work.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

O-O_language + $free_IDE is good enough for the vast majority of educational programming. There are free gui "intro to intro to programming" drag + drop IDEs/teaching tools available as well. IMO there is no need to pay for programming related software in an educational environment

Have you seen any research on this subject, or do you have expertise with teaching K-12?

I use Java and jcreator in my classroom. Both free. There are also free tools that help students get a grasp of concepts before mastering the syntax (bluej, scratch, alice)

There are also packages that help with teaching, karel J robot comes to mind.

I also use codehs.com as a supplement for my class.

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