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Why Shitty Products Survive and Thrive

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Re: Why Shitty Products Survive and Thrive

#111
I think perhaps the writer is using some cognitive dissonance to unfairly dismiss the market leaders as being "shitty". Any time I have used OpenTable (as a user) it has been a really great experience. It does exactly what you expect it to do, and it's always a very smooth experience.

OpenTable has been around since 1998, so I imagine they are the market leader because they were the first to market and their product works well. You can never please everyone, but just because a product doesn't have your pet feature doesn't mean it is "shitty".

Re: Why Shitty Products Survive and Thrive

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be incredibly powerful (for what use case?) and everything. But it's an incredibly bad rich text editor. Word can't keep a list straight.

That's akin to saying "this screwdriver sucks as a hammer." You're using it wrong.

So would you say that your description and expectation of how people use Word matches Microsoft's marketing materials for it?

Re: Why Shitty Products Survive and Thrive

#113
post #2

MS Office (specifically Excel) is not a shitty product. There's a reason why it has a larger monopoly with finance types Wall Street than Google does with search. Power users can quickly build powerful financial models with it.

Too bad Excel isn't really a standalone product. Office and windows are necessary dependencies. Given that, it is a shitty product. If they broke it out, allowed me to run it on an OS I actually want to use, away from MS's gremlins, then I certainly would buy/install/use. But as of today it comes with far too much baggage.

It has been available on Mac OS since 1989 and there is a browser-based version that is freely usable with a Microsoft account. I think you should check your facts.

Re: Why Shitty Products Survive and Thrive

#114
Because 'economics'. Switching costs, network effects, etc...

Here's my favorite book on the subject: http://amzn.to/1JMtX0X

And yes, that's an affiliate link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10982630

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switching_barriers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect

Re: Why Shitty Products Survive and Thrive

#115

While we are all going off-topic, I'd like to see a "collapse thread" feature on HN. Quite often the comments page is dominated by a tangential discussion as seen here.

I agree, the author picked a really bad example(Office) to make his otherwise good point. Office certainly isn't a shitty product compared to its competition.

You can use browser extensions like hckrnews or 'Hacker news enhancement suite' to collapse comments.

http://hckrnews.com/about.html#extensions http://hckrnews.com/about.html#extensions

Re: Why Shitty Products Survive and Thrive

#116
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too bad Excel isn't really a standalone product. Office and windows are necessary dependencies. Given that, it is a shitty product. If they broke it out, allowed me to run it on an OS I actually want to use, away from MS's gremlins, then I certainly would buy/install/use. But as of today it comes with far too much baggage.

It has been available on Mac OS since 1989 and there is a browser-based version that is freely usable with a Microsoft account. I think you should check your facts.

Yes. Neither is the Linux-compatable version I need/want. I use spreadsheets for sensitive information. Something reliant on browsers, with all their headaches, doesn't fit my security model nor that of my clients.

Re: Why Shitty Products Survive and Thrive

#117
post #14

Imagine facebook is a spherical magnet with ten thousand small lead balls clung to it. If you're trying to create a better magnet it can't just be the same as facebook's. Putting the same magnet near facebook's will only collect a small handful of peripheral users. If you want to capture the critical mass you have to energize a magnet with an attractive force so great that it will begin to vibrate users close to the…

I found a better analogy to be a fire.

Think of products/startups as fires, they start small, can't use large logs straight away, need constant attention, you could use a lot of petrol (financing) to get it started faster, but it could also just fizzle out immediately if the large logs don't catch fire as well.

Once they get going, you don't have to watch it so closely, you can just add a log here and there, maybe remove some ash.

The goal of the fire is to get people to gather around it. The warmth in this case matters a lot, but also the people gathering around the fire.

In fact some people might pick another fire because it has people who are interested in the same things as them.

Sometimes a fire gathers TOO many people, and it gets crowded. The maker of the fire didn't make sure it grew large enought to provide warmth to many people - and so people on the outside get cold and go to another fire.

Most of the time though, if someone is by a fire that provides enough warmth for him and he likes the people around it, there is little compelling reason to go to another one.

Re: Why Shitty Products Survive and Thrive

#118
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you go to the hardware store and ask for something to pound nails, they give it to you. When you ask people what they use to pound nails, they say they use this. When you're hired to pound nails, they often insist that you pound nails with this. 99.9% of the people who use this on a regular basis use it exclusively to pound nails. Given that context, it makes little sense to say, that's unfair, it's really a scr…

If 99% of the contractors on the planet were using screwdrivers as hammers, the 1% are the ones using the proper tool for their job. Consensus =/= Fact in every scenario.

My point is that not only do roughly all the users use it that way, but the make agrees with that usage.

At some point you just have to say, this hammer, while apparently designed as a screwdriver, is clearly labeled, sold, purchased, and used as a hammer and is not very good at it.

Re: Why Shitty Products Survive and Thrive

#119
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft Office (by the way 2016 is a pretty solid software suite) is not thriving because of institutional knowledge. Office is great because users in most business settings can quickly pick up any of its applications (learn how to use it) and apply the same learnings to the rest of the suite, personal knowledge with a small learning curve. Also, tools like Excel are malleable and useable for most users in a compan…

> Office is great because users in most business settings can quickly pick up any of its applications My experience is that 'users in business settings' absolutely refuse to consider any alternatives, mainly because of two 'fear factors': 1.) "Everyone else in my industry uses Microsoft Office products so I must as well" 2.) (Usually unstated explicitly) "Learning an alternative is going to cost me time and money and…

Word is the perfect example of a lazy, mediocre product dominating a space through sheer inertia.

The current Mac version can't even keep track of recently opened files. Working with styles is torture. (You can't search them, you can't group them, you can't sort them, the ribbon selection seems to be random.)

The ribbon itself is an unusually eccentric example of software design.

A competitor could easily produce a leaner, better product. But it would never sell, because Word has so many corporate users that anyone who exchanges files with them has to use it too.

Locked-in products do sometimes fail, but they usually only fail to competing products from large companies. The textbook example is the move from QuarkXpress to InDesign, which only became possible because Quark were so famously greedy and lazy about Xpress they literally pissed off the entire print design industry.

Adobe not only had a better product, they also had the sales team and industry relationships to push it. Without those, it's likely Xpress would still be Number 1.

Re: Why Shitty Products Survive and Thrive

#120
post #13
post #8

This is a really, really, important point. How many times have you gotten an app or a tool, used it a few times, and then not ever used it again? If you are an early adopter type you probably have many times. Whether it is todo lists or pizza delivery, if you don't do it enough to ingrain the habit it doesn't stick. And once your head is filled with the cognitive load of day to day stuff you revert to your habits (wh…

For me, this is Twitter. I'm mostly a reader. Writing tweets was incredibly unsatisfying so far and I never got into any kind of habit with it. Sometimes, I have the urge to simply get some random thoughts out of my brain. Sounds like a perfect thing for Twitter, except with Twitter, I have the expectation that my stuff somehow gets noticed. So instead, I use JOURNAL.TXT for that. I write the thought down, it's out o…

Some years ago I came up with a system which I still use extensively. I added these lines to my .bashrc file:

  log(){
  pushd ~/logs;
  echo >> $*;
  date >> $*;
  cat >> $*;
  } 
So whenever I have a piece of information that I'd like to keep - a thought on a project, a word from a foreign language I am learning, ideas for christmas gifts, some bash-fu and so on... - I fire up a terminal (mod+return, in my case) and enter

  log filename
Now I can type down that piece of information right away. File names could be "english" (for vocab) or "xmas" (for gifts) or the name of a project. So either the file already exists and I thus add to it or a new file is created instantly.

It is super quick and non-distracting (i.e. I don't 'accidentally' get carried away by looking at previous thoughts or tweaking the config of a journal application etc.) What's more I find it very convenient that the function automatically adds the current date to each entry.

Btw, I've got another function called "show" which I can call whenever I feel like just briefly skimming through a file

  show(){
  cat ~/logs/$*;
  }
For my daily todo list I enjoy abusing markdown syntax. I do this because syntax highlighting makes it easier to quickly scan through the files. (I use gedit with the monokai theme)

So at the beginning the list looks something likes this:

Task 1

Task 2

Task3

Task4

(comments turn gray so that actual tasks stand out)

Whenever I begin a task I place a "-" in front of its line. Now I see this red minus and thus know that I have started a task that needs to be completed. When I've finished the task I replace the - with a # and now the whole line turns blue. I've line numbers enabled in gedit so when I want to change the status of an item I simply hit ctrl+i and enter the corresponding line number. Some tasks occur daily, at least for a while. In that case I revisit a task's line again at the end of the day and remove the "#". Similarly, when I want to delete an unnecessary task I go to its line and hit ctrl+d and thus delete it. It is super primitive but I like it. ;)

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