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Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

nytimes.com

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Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#111

Post by e40 »

geebee wrote: post #104

While I'm glad to see the NYTimes covering this issue, I am disappointed with the headline. The US takes over 1.2 million immigrants legally into the country every year. These new free and full citizens pursue educations and careers in response to their personal life interests and market signals. You know, that whole pesky freedom thing that corporations often despise in their workforce. Some enter high tech, some do…

The US takes over 1.2 million immigrants legally into the country every year. These new free and full citizens pursue...

They aren't citizens right away. Getting even a green card takes about 5 years. Citizenship another 5-10 years.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#112

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #92
chimeracoder wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people acknowledge that the Iraqi people aren't ready for Democracy. This is a really contentious statement that you just drop in both as fact and as the basis of your entire argument. No, I would not say that 'the Iraqi people aren't ready for Democracy' is a true statement. I also wouldn't say that what 'most people [in the US]' think about the Iraqi people's readiness for democracy [in Iraq] is really relev…

It's an idea that was invoked by the American left to explain Bush's failure in Iraq, and eventually conceded by key figures on the right as well: http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-rumsfeld-admits-that-e... . So I'm not sure it's all that controversial. And we're not talking about whether individual Iraqis in Minnesota are ready for democracy. We are talking about the link posted earlier in the thread, which sugg…

[deleted]

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#113

Post by davidw »

dcre wrote: post #110
geebee wrote: post #104

While I'm glad to see the NYTimes covering this issue, I am disappointed with the headline. The US takes over 1.2 million immigrants legally into the country every year. These new free and full citizens pursue educations and careers in response to their personal life interests and market signals. You know, that whole pesky freedom thing that corporations often despise in their workforce. Some enter high tech, some do…

Very well said. I would add that "corporate power over individuals" applies to the fired employees just as well to the fired employees as to the H1B workers. Indeed, their power over the former depends fundamentally on their power over the latter.

It applies in different quantities though: the fired US people can apply for unemployment and look for a new job, or maybe take some time off and go surfing, or move elsewhere, or pursue a degree. The fired H1B people need to book a flight home.

That implies a lot more power over the latter.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#114

Post by rayiner »

davidw wrote: post #100
rayiner wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because delineating something isn't easy doesn't mean the line has no distinction. Here's an example. I'm an immigrant from the subcontinent. Even among educated people there, coming out as gay can be downright dangerous.[1] I'll go out on a limb and say that we should not allow people to immigrate here any more quickly than we can expect to disabuse them of these sorts of beliefs. [1] I'm cognizant of the fact…

I see your point, but realistically, you have to put something down into laws, and I have no idea how you would do that. There are plenty of people in the US who loathe gay people and would deny them a variety of rights. Look at what this guy has to say: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas#Scalia.27s_d... Perhaps the problem is that he is the son of an immigrant? Historically, "people not like us" has bee…

You can't ignore the fact that, statistically, those outside the U.S. and certain other countries have many attitudes and values we don't want to encourage in the U.S., at a higher rate than the prevalence of those attitudes within the country. Of course you can't impose ideological tests to get into the U.S. Which is all the more reason to limit immigration to what you can comfortably assimilate.

As an immigrant myself I'm really thankful for our melting pot policies. Life will be better for my daughter growing up surrounded by American attitudes. Had our family immigranted en masse with a million other Bangladeshi families, she might very well have been deprived of that.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#115

Post by whybroke »

makecheck wrote: post #77
diogenescynic wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, the real fix is to make the H-1B 'lottery' into an auction. Instead of accepting 65,000 H-1Bs at random--accept the 65,000 H-1Bs with the highest wages. That way we are getting the immigrants with the highest valued skills and stopping companies like Cognizant and Infosys that game the immigration system by applying for the cheapest H-1Bs possible.

As someone who went through the process, I can tell you that the mere existence of a maximum annual number was insulting. If I get a job, and my company NEEDS me, and I'm GOOD at what I'm doing, I should get IN; period. There should be no crap involved. How the hell is it good for a company to be told that it can't grow because it happened to petition the 65,001st person out of 65,000 that year? How the hell is it go…

There is no limit to growth there's just a limit to how little a developer will accept a job for. That is the sole limit H1B is trying to work on.

I assure you and anyone reading this, your skills are not unique nor is you talent unmatched. And even if they were, there is no way it could be discovered in our broken hiring processes. The chief attraction in these 65000 cases, so long as some vaguely plausible skill exist, is price I'm afraid.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#116

Post by utternerd »

logfromblammo wrote: post #105
utternerd wrote: post #38

If that replacement can serve the same purpose, and give approximately the same value to the company, why should the native and/or higher-waged person expect to have priority?

By the same argument, we could transfer Disney's copyrights and trademarks to Crazy Sven's Discount Intellectual Property Licensing Emporium, and t-shirts featuring Mickey Mouse could be sold at 30% off the previous price. Why should Disney expect to keep that monopoly privilege and control if the public could still get the same benefit from someone else? Why should the laws of a mostly free and mostly democratic soc…

"We follow the law, because it is the law" is not a valid response in my humble opinion, because it got us exactly where we are now.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#117

Post by diogenescynic »

makecheck wrote: post #102
diogenescynic wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Limits of any kind make no sense at all. They are trying to protect US citizens from losing their jobs (or getting wages cut) due to a sudden availability of cheap labor. A government is rightfully concerned with making sure its own citizens are gainfully employed. Citizens vote, foreigners don't. Every person within those borders who does not have a job puts a drain on the rest of the country. Someone without a job…

The thing is, "protection of US citizens" assumes a lot about what actually happens to companies, and it assumes a lot about what the citizens themselves are doing. First, are you willing to pay $500 more for every product, and $10 more for every meal? Companies have to compete, and they are responding to what is necessary to survive. If a company employs 5,000 U.S. citizens and can't compete, it may stumble and lay…

>First, are you willing to pay $500 more for every product, and $10 more for every meal? Companies have to compete, and they are responding to what is necessary to survive. If a company employs 5,000 U.S. citizens and can't compete, it may stumble and lay off 1,000 U.S. citizens, or fail entirely and shed 5,000 U.S. jobs, all because it wasn't allowed to bring in a few immigrants to grow a little.

You're playing fast and loose with the facts. $500 for every product and $10 for every meal? That doesn't seem like an intellectually honest scenario. Where is that based in reality? Skilled immigration and non-skilled immigration are totally different. No one here is begrudging the immigrants picking fruits and doing farm labor. The issue is when companies lie/cheat/commit fraud to outsource jobs that Americans do want and are qualified/willing to do, all for the sake of driving down wages.

Not to mention most of those 'products' are manufactured in China already so there isn't going to be much price increasing there. Second, what a ridiculous scenario where a company has to choose between hiring 'a few' immigrants to save 'thousands' of US workers. Again, where are you drawing these examples from? Clearly not reality.

You didn't acknowledge what I said and again shifted the goal posts to another issue entirely. This is a pointless conversation if you can't even listen to the other side.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#118

Post by prostoalex »

makecheck wrote: post #77
diogenescynic wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, the real fix is to make the H-1B 'lottery' into an auction. Instead of accepting 65,000 H-1Bs at random--accept the 65,000 H-1Bs with the highest wages. That way we are getting the immigrants with the highest valued skills and stopping companies like Cognizant and Infosys that game the immigration system by applying for the cheapest H-1Bs possible.

As someone who went through the process, I can tell you that the mere existence of a maximum annual number was insulting. If I get a job, and my company NEEDS me, and I'm GOOD at what I'm doing, I should get IN; period. There should be no crap involved. How the hell is it good for a company to be told that it can't grow because it happened to petition the 65,001st person out of 65,000 that year? How the hell is it go…

In a situation like this large direct employers usually take advantage of L-1 visa, which is reserved for moving existing employees between foreign and US-based offices. Outsourcing companies are at disadvantage with L-1, but so are smaller startups who don't have foreign offices.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#119

Post by geebee »

makecheck wrote: post #77
diogenescynic wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, the real fix is to make the H-1B 'lottery' into an auction. Instead of accepting 65,000 H-1Bs at random--accept the 65,000 H-1Bs with the highest wages. That way we are getting the immigrants with the highest valued skills and stopping companies like Cognizant and Infosys that game the immigration system by applying for the cheapest H-1Bs possible.

As someone who went through the process, I can tell you that the mere existence of a maximum annual number was insulting. If I get a job, and my company NEEDS me, and I'm GOOD at what I'm doing, I should get IN; period. There should be no crap involved. How the hell is it good for a company to be told that it can't grow because it happened to petition the 65,001st person out of 65,000 that year? How the hell is it go…

Why is it better to let corporations decide who gets to live in the US and become a resident or citizen, rather than doing this by lottery?

I mean, in the absence of open borders, we have a limited number of spots available. Why should someone who wants to open a sandwich shop have lower priority than a programmer? Why should we skew things to accomodate Disney's desire to fire middle aged programmers? I think it's pretty clear we aren't talking about best and brightest here.

While I don't love the idea, I would concede that focusing on skilled immigration does make a certain amount of sense. But even then, I see no reason to give corporations the power to micromanage who gets in and who doesn't. They are, of course, free to hire any of the immigrants who come here - in fact, it would be very illegal, and rightly so, to discriminate against immigrants.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#120

Post by prostoalex »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #63
diogenescynic wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, the real fix is to make the H-1B 'lottery' into an auction. Instead of accepting 65,000 H-1Bs at random--accept the 65,000 H-1Bs with the highest wages. That way we are getting the immigrants with the highest valued skills and stopping companies like Cognizant and Infosys that game the immigration system by applying for the cheapest H-1Bs possible.

Just why should the companies be able to bid on the labour? If there is a labour shortage in an industry, surely one can come up with a number of slots and then hand our green cards to the immigrants who can pick the employer that offers the best conditions.

Idea of curating immigration is practical in other countries (Canada, Australia), but somehow is not politically feasible in the US.

American electorate is somehow more placated by having a random number generator yield winners in a green card lottery.

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