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Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

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Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#111
post #81
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any simple definition is distorted, inevitably. Income, consumption or utility have a case. That said, wealth by this definition is most relevant in certain contexts. If you're worried about political consequences, for example. When the majority of property-wealth belongs to a small minority the majority have less reason to preserve property rights, for example.

The availability of credit will allow those that are asset poor but with reasonable earnings potential to compete for resources fairly. There are of course very serious implications when, for example, asset bubbles and unfunded state liabilities will create unfairness between generations. That's an example of real inequality. There are many other forms of real inequality. Fake inequality is when two people with compa…

I agree that income and (current) wealth are often fungible. The main reason I think wealth is usually reported because real income figures are hard to come by. If we want to look at the extreme end, current property and not income is the only option.

But, I think wealth (above definition) may be important as a stand alone. Many of the political implications of wealth disparity have more to do with current wealth than income, for example.

I do think you have a point though, as I said. Some wealth disparity is a matter of age, for example. But the disparities we have and those we project are very large. They may overstate disparities in income and consumption taken alone, but I don't think it's more clear headed to dismiss them outright. They do indicate a real and growing disparity.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#112
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. If you're really sure of yourself you can leverage up without much money.

Much is still some. Edit: I got down-voted because I've got no money?

I didn't down vote (I can't; I don't have the points) but I imagine it is because what you said sounded like a knee jerk reaction or perhaps because you missed the word without in your quote.

Or because people are assholes. It doesn't matter. Smile (:

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#113
post #19

2.7 million puts one in the richest 1%? Unexpected, but I guess it makes sense. There are still a lot of very poor in the world. I started to think "injustice" when I saw the article, but 2.7 million will barely buy a nice house in some parts of the US. I suppose in some ways wealth is still relative. I guess I'm more curious about what percentage of world assets the .001% control.

Where did you find that 2.7m number? The most recent data is the Credit Suisse 2015 set, which you can see here: https://www.credit-suisse.com/uk/en/about-us/research/resear... They put the 1% line at $760k, and that's net worth: include the value of your home, subtract your debts. I'm pretty unhappy about this oxfam article. It talks about "the richest 1%" and "the billionaires" alongside each other as if these grou…

2.7 million is from the article. But looking back you are right, it's an average not a cutoff.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#114
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of "property rights without responsibility" is a Roman invention. There are alternatives. US law takes property rights more seriously than most other countries, because the US never had to get rid of feudalism. Also, one of the few lawbooks available in the early days of the US was Blackstone, who was a property rights absolutist. In feudalism, land ownership implies the obligation to protect the inhabita…

The comment you are replying to isn't disagreeing with you. The people who believe property rights are "natural" aren't saying they aren't a human creation at all. Just that they are a human right, like other rights that are also human creations. The justification for this is something like you own your labor and slavery is wrong, and if you use your labor to produce something, it's unfair for anyone to take it from…

> But in general there is an argument to be made that natural resources should be publicly owned, or at least rented with the profits going to the public.

First made famous by Henry George, if anyone is interested.

An interesting use-case for cryptocurrencies/blockchain-like technology.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#115
post #69

I feel the serious point Oxfam are looking to make is let down by a definition of wealth that is very distorted. Their headline is based on a report by Credit Suisse [1] which defines net worth as: "the marketable value of financial assets plus non-financial assets (principally housing and land) less debts." Consider two people who will earn exactly the same amount of money at every stage of their lives. But one is 1…

On the other hand consider those depicted as the "poor" stereotype: Many young people in Asian cities will have low incomes and little to no savings, however many/most will have security and ability to self-sustain: a rural family/clan home, subsistence farming options, livestock.

Compare that to urban low-income families in middle-to-highly developed countries. No roof or food unless you pay for it, paycheck-to-paycheck. Few opportunities to accumulate wealth. No clan/community to help out.

While the first will do an order of magnitude worse on income studies, I'm not sure the latter are overall in a better position, economically.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#116
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're certainly not poor, but if they've saved that stash just to blow it all on end-of-life care, they're not really wealthy in the perceived 1% sense.

Someone with $2.5m to spend on end of life care is a heck of a lot wealthier than someone with $250k to spend on end of life care. No matter what, if everything else is equal, someone with $2.5m is very wealthy. Arguments like "Ah, but they're not really wealthy because..." will always fail because there'll always be the case of someone in the same situation who doesn't have $2.5m, at which point the person with $2.5…

I generally agree with you.

The problem, in my opinion, is that there are too few gradations when talking about wealth. Yes, someone with a million dollars in assets - heck, even $10k in assets - is very wealthy, globally. I completely agree.

But to lump them in with the actual ruling class and call them "elites" is naive.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#117
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment you are replying to isn't disagreeing with you. The people who believe property rights are "natural" aren't saying they aren't a human creation at all. Just that they are a human right, like other rights that are also human creations. The justification for this is something like you own your labor and slavery is wrong, and if you use your labor to produce something, it's unfair for anyone to take it from…

> But in general there is an argument to be made that natural resources should be publicly owned, or at least rented with the profits going to the public. First made famous by Henry George, if anyone is interested. An interesting use-case for cryptocurrencies/blockchain-like technology.

Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolibertarianism

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#118
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're certainly not poor, but if they've saved that stash just to blow it all on end-of-life care, they're not really wealthy in the perceived 1% sense.

Someone with $2.5m to spend on end of life care is a heck of a lot wealthier than someone with $250k to spend on end of life care. No matter what, if everything else is equal, someone with $2.5m is very wealthy. Arguments like "Ah, but they're not really wealthy because..." will always fail because there'll always be the case of someone in the same situation who doesn't have $2.5m, at which point the person with $2.5…

You bring up a good point. When we're talking about wealth, we all seem to ignore age in the process. Age has a huge impact on how wealthy you are.

If you're 25 and you have $2.5M? Yes, you're wealthy since you have 40 years of earning potential on top of your money.

If you're 65 and you have $2.5M? Very well off, but nowhere close to the 25 year old.

Same goes with inequality. If you ignore age, then things really unfair. How can someone have $3M and another nothing? But that ignore the fact that you'll have inequality regardless just due to age. It's not unreasonable for someone who is 65 to have a lot more money than someone who is 25. That's just the benefit of time.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#119
post #65
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net worth, that includes your home. And don't forget returns on investment. Saving $30K/yr and getting a 5% return on your investment gets you very close to $2.5M after a 30 year career. Sure that's in the upper range of middle class, but it's by no means wealthy.

it's by no means wealthy Are you honestly trying to suggest that someone with $2.5m to their name isn't wealthy? Wow.

I like how you didn't quote my words "upper middle class".

I guess the question is, what is wealthy then? I haven't ever seen a definitive cutoff. $1M? That doesn't seem like much if it's a household with two retired people.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#120
A good response to this[1] was posted here on Hacker News, but so far it languishes unread, with too few upvotes to promote it from the new submissions page. Take a look for a specific response to the article kindly submitted to open this active thread.

[1] "What Oxfam won’t tell you about capitalism and poverty"

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/what-oxfam-wont-tell-yo...

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