Live data from Hacker News

Do the math on your stock options

jvns.ca

111–120 of 259 posts

Re: Do the math on your stock options

#111
post #24

I've currently got around 60 days to exercise some options with a company. But I have not been told how many shares there are out there or anything about the company finances so I have no way to judge how much they might be worth even in the best case. In the end though the amount that I can buy is so low that even if they are worth 10x what I'm paying for them it is not worth the paperwork and trouble.

The easiest thing to do is find out what the current strike price is and compare it to the strike price of your options. This will tell you ONE key metric for determining the stock's value and will help assist in estimating your tax liability.

The same is true at time of negotiation. You don't really need to know how many shares are outstanding if you have the strike price and an estimate for the company's growth. That is, you're investing $X dollars and expect it to raise by a multiple of Y.

Re: Do the math on your stock options

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they told you that the number of outstanding shares was privileged and confidential they are crooks in nice suits. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Getting a seed round doesn't magically confer the founders/C*Os with an comprehensive understanding of how company equity works. Or common sense.

In all fairness, anyone who doesn't get that the expression c/x where c is known and x is unknown can match any given rational number - or the implication that this makes c convey zero information - is pretty much definitionally unfit for running a tech company. So malice might actually be the charitable explanation here. I mean, imagine if someone followed the same practice for the salary part of compensation: "We w…

^^ At least in that case you would see in 2 weeks what your actual salary is ;)

Re: Do the math on your stock options

#113
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they told you that the number of outstanding shares was privileged and confidential they are crooks in nice suits. Also at this point in time there is so much shady stuff going on with options that you should always always value options at zero. Frankly if all you are offering is your labor in return for options you don't have the pull to get a particularly good deal. (Example: Friend worked three years at a start…

> If they told you that the number of outstanding shares was privileged and confidential they are crooks in nice suits. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Getting a seed round doesn't magically confer the founders/C*Os with an comprehensive understanding of how company equity works. Or common sense.

It is also a signal -- "Can this person be persuaded to work for magic-big-number options but half the salary without too many question? If yes, then he's a believer and want him to work for us. He'll probably stay up on weekends and work for the cause." If he's asking too many questions, he'll probably question our decision making down the road as well, and will be hard to fool.

This can be seen in recruiting stagee as well, it is usually presented as the take home question. Give them a take home interview problem that takes two days to solve. Those that go for it, will be dedicated and desperate enough to be good workers.

Re: Do the math on your stock options

#114

I am considering an offer from an early stage startup. Salary is being dragged down ~40% under market due to stock options. The role is being a 'first key engineer' hire after the three co-founders. What kind of common-stock equity offer is 'average' in this case? 1%? 2%? 5%?

First step, put on your negative nancy glasses and deep dig. What is the chance of success? Are they shipping? Profitable? Do they have a bunch of big competitors to try and overcome? A kind of stupid idea that probably won't work? The founders will sell you on the dream, you need to dig into the other side.

For me - I would cofound for 40% less pay(and say get 10-30% of the company), but not be engineer #1 for <5%. At the end of the day, a job is a job, why work for less than you are worth?

Re: Do the math on your stock options

#115
As I compete to hire engineers, I've found myself in the role of providing counsel to many younger candidates we see about alternative opportunities they're considering. Outside the large tech-cos, they're usually considering joining a startup with a lower salary and some number of options for equity.

Our company is a wholly-owned subsidiary of a private holding company and does not offer equity ownership. As an alternative to equity options, we have bonus plans based on performance, both annual as well as long-term. We make estimations about overall company performance on a few metrics in order to provide what amounts to a range of values for how those plans apply to a specific candidate's role with us.

But I get a lot of questions about how to compare an offer from us to an offer from a startup that includes equity options as part of compensation. It's simple to compare salary, benefits, etc. But invariably, we get into conversations where candidates ask me how to value equity options they've received from another company.

First, I'm totally upfront about the fact that I'm: 1) not an expert, and 2) biased. But I am always honest with a candidate, and do everything I can to put myself in the shoes of an advisor.

Without looking at any offer details they have, I point them to the equation inputs: # of outstanding shares, preferred percentages, any liquidation preferences in play (need the multiple too), and the valuation. I'm sure there are other data points that could apply, but this information seems like table stakes. Nonetheless, if they have this information, they could at least gauge the value of their own equity options with exit scenarios at different levels.

But converting those scenarios to present-day value? This is the part where I always check myself, but I express that those equity options are almost certainly zero value. The outcome of a significant positive exit is always an outlier on the distribution curve, so appropriate discounting applies. That's the math part, which is as good as your assumptions and estimates allow.

The hardest part of those conversations is understanding how to justify assumptions in those calculations, such as how high profile a startup may be (and how that affects those assumptions.) I've been around long enough to have friends who were employees with numbers less than 30 at some very high-profile startups who had significant public exits, yet those employees made little to nothing. And to say nothing of those companies that simply didn't make it.

As creatives, our natural instincts drive us to believe we can create the value necessary for us to derive positive outcomes and ultimately benefit in these situations. The historical numbers simply don't represent that fact, and indeed show that outcome to be a rare occurrence. Good on you if that happens, but the odds are simply not in your favor.

As I conclude with most candidates, I tell them their mileage may vary and that they should absolutely seek the advice of someone entirely independent. Maybe as luck would have it, we have had a few candidates join us that were strongly leaning to accepting their startup offer. Several told me their reasoning -- they trusted my honesty with them. Who knows, maybe that's the real value in equity options. :-)

Re: Do the math on your stock options

#116
post #110
post #2

I'm really interested in other people's experiences with understanding how their stock options work. It seems really easy to misunderstand something serious, even if you know quite a lot about equity.

I got offered a job 4 years ago at a very early stage company with really generous stock options. I didn't know what options meant, I didn't know that I had to exercise. That was pretty silly on my part but in my defense I was getting my visa, moving across the world, and working as the first employee trying to keep up with insane growth. When the time came to raise our second round, I got intrested in how it would a…

There are also issues around your employer offering you specific tax/legal advice. It opens them up to liability. They can say "here are how options work in general" but they'll always follow it with "but for your situation, you should talk to a CPA/attorney."

I also made the mistake of not working through the implications until a year or so in. Luckily, I joined early enough that my strike price (and valuation) was still low enough that I could exercise pretty easily.

Disclosure: It appears that my former employer has filed their S-1 in the last couple weeks.

Re: Do the math on your stock options

#117
post #63

Why do firms offer options as opposed to actual equity? The way these options are structured plus US tax law basically means a lose - lose scenario for the employee.

I think some of it has to do with giving you either X stock or 2-4x Options...

If your company is growing every year, and the stock is liquid, Options are great. I know a fortune 1000 company that used to give people a bunch of options at bonus time, people loved it - bought houses, etc. Then the stock turned sideways, so they switched to 50% options, 50% shares (with the actual share count being option count / 4, to approximately take into account that shares are worth a lot more than options). The next year they flipped to 100% shares. No one would get mega rich with a small pile of shares, but everyone would have some money in the bank...

Re: Do the math on your stock options

#118
If you are considering a job that offers options/stock I think this is the most important thing to consider.

1. Do the founders have a history of successful exits? 2. If so, did all employees with stock get paid?

If either is no, you should consider options/stock worth $0

Re: Do the math on your stock options

#119

I am considering an offer from an early stage startup. Salary is being dragged down ~40% under market due to stock options. The role is being a 'first key engineer' hire after the three co-founders. What kind of common-stock equity offer is 'average' in this case? 1%? 2%? 5%?

In my experience it's never a good idea to take a pay cut in lue of equity. Taking a pay cut because you like the product, the role, etc. are infinity better reasons than equity. In my opinion a 40% pay cut and being one of the first 5 engineers warrants co-founder status.

[deleted]

Re: Do the math on your stock options

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen the ability to customize these kind of things because they generally are, in my experience, part of the core options agreement for the entire company and would require BoD approval. Thus, you're asking a lot - works if your a key employee but probably not for the average employee. Would love to hear if people have been able to get these terms.

Righto, and asking a lot of demands/questions means the company is not going to like you as much and will influence your relationship after the offer is accepted. The info you get will be standard and there is certain info they are not going to want to share. Basically a casual ask for "can you share how many options are outstanding?" is about as good as you are going to get. Totally good. Non-stand demands? Not so g…

There is absolutely no reason not to disclose the number of outstanding shares. Failure to do so means the denominator in the equation can be anything. One or one billion. At that point you have to value the entire option nonsense at $0 total, or even negative given the tax implications. It takes all the truth out of the statement "our cash compensation is below market because of our generous option grants." If I can't figure out the monetary value of the options at the given strike price, I have no way of knowing if they're generous or not.
Post reply on HN