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How bad are things?

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Re: How bad are things?

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>sincerely no offense meant Thanks! Guess it depends. Once you see it working it is hard not to. As for the irrational part, my take is that once I believe in a almighty / close-to-almigthy God (close-to because of the free will part) everything falls in place. I don't argue about creationism or not etc, I accept science as very useful models and don't make a fuzz of it, I actually don't even think about because it i…

I was happier when I was religious. That's the main reason I've considered going back to it. Couldn't do it :(

I'm in the same boat. The one thing that so far has been promising - after about 10 years of 'nothing' since I left my faith - has been zen buddhism.

It tickles my 'theological' side by providing an incredibly rich history of thoughts and thinkers that is almost entirely unknown to me (in contrast to Christian theology).

More importantly, at least in the form at which I'm exposed to it here, it explicitly promotes not spending too much time on the thinking part of things, has less cultural/religious baggage, and as a result is much more palatable and practical than Christianity has ever been for me.

The only thing that it doesn't offer me (yet), and it's a big one, is the sense of community and 'rhythm' that the church offered (Sunday service, youth and small-group meetings, usually at least one other type of activity a week).

Re: How bad are things?

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine he's saying Coca-Cola makes you fat and diabetic, and thus unhappy, whereas it purports to make you happy. So it creates the problem it says it solves.

Yeah, I imagine something like that too. I asked to see if there was something better. But that argument is really weak. All products are obviously intended to improve your life in some way. If a product causes more problems than it solves long term, it's true that people may buy more products to solve those problems. But to assume that they would buy more of the exact product that caused the problem is really silly.…

> But to assume that they would buy more of the exact product that caused the problem is really silly. Why not buy some of all the other products in the world that would make me better off, and one that addresses my particular problem?

I don't understand why it is even remotely silly. Consider alcohol and tobacco, or any other addictive substance. A very common dynamic is that the addiction feeds itself. Sugar might be less addictive and/or less unhealthy than alcohol and tobacco, but it's still addictive and unhealthy.

While it might be possible that the more extreme statement that most cola-drinking obese and diabetic people keep drinking more and more cola is false, 'buying more of the thing that is the problem' is not at all silly. And anecdotally I find that obese people do tend to get stuck in this spiral and consume massive quantities of sugar water: that's why they got obese in the first place!

Re: How bad are things?

#113
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scott (the author) is using "thinkpiece writers" a bit equivocably, I think, with the latter usage being his hobby horse of attacking left wing social justice activists. His counterpoint to you, which I would say has some traction, would likely be that those thinkpiece writers are deploying constructs like "privilege" as a way to discredit the very real struggle of people in groups that don't fall under the accepted…

First of all, obviously no one in this thread wants to discredit real people's real struggles. "I have just gotten home from treating a member of Group X who attempted suicide"---these are problems that deserve addressing, and I'm glad that the clearly very capable Scott is working hard on them. > His counterpoint to you, which I would say has some traction, would likely be that those thinkpiece writers are deploying…

Good chance that this long-winded response will end up being lost in a stale thread, but in case you happen to come back to it:

I suspect if we get down to concrete descriptions and prescriptions, we'd have a lot more agreement than disagreement. So maybe all of this is semantic, and a bit far afield of Scott's original post.

Privilege is an important concept: many people, however, elevate it to a metaphysical reality, instead of a set of cultural practices and institutions situated in a particular social context. The idea seems to be there's white and black, male and female, rich and poor, and that set of binary relations is defined by membership in a hardcoded hierarchy of oppression. Even "intersectionality," which most everyone is already familiar with, in practice seems to be mostly about "there are lots of checkboxes you can check, and you'll always have some that are checked and some that aren't!" More sophisticated takes on it acknowledge the incommensurability of experience and use that to condemn oppression olympics[0], but it falls prey to a core problem.

Privilege ends up being a very leaky abstraction. "White privilege" (privilege itself, not the term) is a modern invention: white privilege didn't exist in 1500, because white people and black people didn't exist in 1500. Race was constructed in the early modern era to provide the ideological superstructure for the pattern of colonialism and domination originating from the western coast of the Eurasian landmass. And the strange fruits of its maturation in the late 19th century remain with us to this very day, to the extent that in the vast majority of contexts, you're better off being white than black. So I'm very comfortable with using a monolithic white privilege as an explanatory concept when talking strictly about black-white race relations.

Even that, though, breaks down when you consider the multiplicity of races: you no longer can have a simple binary of the oppressed and the oppressors, because you have to account for East Asian, Native American, South Asian, etc. experiences as well. You can try to bundle all of them together and talk about "white privilege over nonwhites," but that's pretty problematic itself, because it reduces all non-white racial experience to simply being the Other. Or you can come up with a whole set of racial binaries--white and Asian, white and black, white and non-white Hispanic--which respects the unique discourse that defines each race, but runs into issues when you start talking about, for example, black-Asian relations. I don't think this at all undermines the usefulness of white privilege as a concept, but it's a very subtle concept.

The point of all of this prelude? Even in the simple case of one clearly dominant group, treating white privilege as a monolith is tricky, though I think ultimately it's doable in a way that's useful and powerful. But that brings me to my main point: male-female privilege, which nowadays is better characterized as male privileges and female privileges, though in the past it was very one-sided. The current discourse of privilege, however, is unable to account for that complicated reality, because it insists on parts of each individual's identity being classed into a binary of oppressed and oppressors. And because of that, it very much discredits people's real struggles. It categorically rejects the possibility that men suffer systemic oppression based on their maleness. Men who fall outside the male archetype, in body, personality, or how they are socially situated, are marginalized and face economic and social discrimination. And even men who manage to fall within the narrow scope of our society's hegemonic masculinity suffer a great deal due to it, resulting in harrowing statistics like men comprising 3/4 of successful suicides.

At worst, the response to this from activists is nastiness, mockery, and derision ("I drink male tears!"). Sometimes the response is saying that that sucks, but it's not systemic oppression so it's not worth worrying about, or maybe that men committing the large majority of suicides is bad but it's different in scale from the oppression every woman experiences. Best is the more empathetic and sophisticated ones who cite "toxic masculinity", which is fine as far as it goes: it acknowledges that men suffer based on their gender, and I can enthusiastically be allies with people who recognize that. But it strikes me as trying to fit the square peg of oppressive male gender roles into the round hole of privilege. For point of comparison, consider how ridiculous something like "toxic whiteness" or "toxic affluenza" sounds. But otherwise there's no way for privilege discourse to acknowledge that there's anything at all that sucks about being expected to perform masculinity.

So, that ended up being quite the essay. But thanks if you read it!

[0] Though, isn't "acknowledging the distress while continuing to point out the difference in scale" really just oppression olympics under a different name? Or does this come from the point of view that oppression olympics is a valid intellectual exercise, but isn't useful tactically while collaborating with diverse sets of people?

Re: How bad are things?

#114
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course unquantifiable (psychic) profits are different and unrelated. Value and profits are not the same thing Then perhaps you should stop asserting that "There is nothing wrong with pursuing profits", as you apparently are well aware that increased profits and increased value do not necessarily coincide?

Increased value of what ? There's no such thing as this monolithic unit of value that is in conflict with the monolithic unit of profit. Values are not necessarily profits, but profits are values.

Why should my statement require qualification, while your statement stands similarly unqualified?

Re: How bad are things?

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, obviously no one in this thread wants to discredit real people's real struggles. "I have just gotten home from treating a member of Group X who attempted suicide"---these are problems that deserve addressing, and I'm glad that the clearly very capable Scott is working hard on them. > His counterpoint to you, which I would say has some traction, would likely be that those thinkpiece writers are deploying…

Good chance that this long-winded response will end up being lost in a stale thread, but in case you happen to come back to it: I suspect if we get down to concrete descriptions and prescriptions, we'd have a lot more agreement than disagreement. So maybe all of this is semantic, and a bit far afield of Scott's original post. Privilege is an important concept: many people, however, elevate it to a metaphysical realit…

> Good chance that this long-winded response will end up being lost in a stale thread

The same is true of my post, I'm glad you responded :)

And yes, doubtless we agree on a lot more than we disagree on, which I try to keep in mind even when I'm tempted to get heated in an Internet argument.

But even so I'm gonna skip over most of the first half of your essay since you indeed appear to be saying things I agree with (the summary seems to be "privilege is complicated and people on all 'sides' routinely get it wrong"?), and chime in on what I appear to disagree with you on.

> resulting in harrowing statistics like men comprising 3/4 of successful suicides.

This seems to always be the centerpiece of arguments about "female privilege", because other examples tend to be much more nebulous whereas mortality statistics are concrete and factual. But there's nuance here, as you seem aware but don't at all address: though the numbers are less certain, experts agree that women attempt more suicides, they're just less "successful". From my understanding, this is fully explainable (but debated, don't get me wrong!) as just the differing lethality in the societally gendered methods of suicide, but for the sake of argument let's say there's a real, societal, systemic problem causing male suicide rates to be much higher. I'm still going to argue that male privilege is like white privilege (which you're "comfortable with" as part of a binary, right) and female privilege isn't, in spite of the higher suicide rate.

First reason? You realize that suicide among white people is more than twice as high as among black people?

"Toxic whiteness" is indeed rarely discussed, but "affluenza" is only ridiculous when used as a legal defense, it'd be like arguing that a black person is not guilty of murder because they were under the influence of racism; but there's nothing ridiculous about the idea that being rich is actually a curse, you ever seen Gossip Girl? :P (I think we can agree Gossip Girl didn't exactly pioneer that story element.) Other axes of privilege have similar ideas, e.g. "heteronormativity". There's nothing special about masculinity in this regard. The kyriarchy hurts everyone.

So if heteronormativity hurts straight people too, and the patriarchy hurts men too, why is being straight and/or male a privilege? For the same reason that it's not "oppression olympics" to say that even though white people have a higher suicide rate and are underrepresented in hip-hop (just like men have a higher suicide rate and are underrepresented in nursing and stuff), being white is a privilege in black-white relations.

Final note---did I mention that "acknowledging the distress while continuing to point out the difference in scale" is a quote from one of the best essays I've ever read? Have you read it yet? I would love to hear your thoughts: http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privile...

Re: How bad are things?

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go on I'll bite :) What sorted it for you?

Christianity. It got me a head start[0] and I think I was lucky to start with friends who explained that forgiveness is just the start and that I was supposed to be living a new life. That said, like other believers here I don't usually mention it as it can effectively derail discussions. [0] I'd tried for a 2/3 years before admitting I couldn't do this on my own, -I was so impulsive I didn't recognize I was doing so…

I've been a christian for a very long time, finding myself sliding away, just don't find the solace in it anymore? Any thoughts? I still find myself attracted to the ideas - grace, forgiveness, love, a relationship with god, just so attractive - but just can't seem to make the bridge from it to the daily grind.

Re: How bad are things?

#117
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christianity. It got me a head start[0] and I think I was lucky to start with friends who explained that forgiveness is just the start and that I was supposed to be living a new life. That said, like other believers here I don't usually mention it as it can effectively derail discussions. [0] I'd tried for a 2/3 years before admitting I couldn't do this on my own, -I was so impulsive I didn't recognize I was doing so…

I've been a christian for a very long time, finding myself sliding away, just don't find the solace in it anymore? Any thoughts? I still find myself attracted to the ideas - grace, forgiveness, love, a relationship with god, just so attractive - but just can't seem to make the bridge from it to the daily grind.

This thread is getting old but for now:

Did anyone teach you the more advanced parts?

I've updated my profile to link to a site that I feel includes useful material (and yes, I am part of that bunch in a way.)

I might get around to adding some kind of contact details for myself, but for now I wont.

Re: How bad are things?

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christianity. It got me a head start[0] and I think I was lucky to start with friends who explained that forgiveness is just the start and that I was supposed to be living a new life. That said, like other believers here I don't usually mention it as it can effectively derail discussions. [0] I'd tried for a 2/3 years before admitting I couldn't do this on my own, -I was so impulsive I didn't recognize I was doing so…

Faith is extremely good for this. I didn't want to kickstart the perennial HN argument about 12 step programs, but that's how I found mine. I would add that I'm not exactly a Christian, although I find a lot of inspiration in the gospel and the writings of Christian thinkers -- so one doesn't have to go "all the way" and believe in life after death and miracles and stuff -- it's often enough to focus on forgiveness a…

> it's often enough to focus on forgiveness and compassion, and that there's something bigger and more important than you and your tiny problems

so, would Buddhism also work then?

I've done a lot of compassion meditation (which combined with insight meditation which fills out some more the forgiveness parts) in the past, and I have learned so much from that. Much bigger impact than I got from mindfulness meditation[0]. I did both during my morning routine for a while and was very beneficial. Combined with a weekly sangha (meditation-group) practice, which was absolutely instrumental too. Without that group, I wouldn't have made it my morning routine--no pressure just I noticed some people were doing that and gave it a try. Then there's the dharma-sharing part, which is nice but seems to me mostly a tool for group-cohesion (as well as an exercise in listening without judging), similar to singing songs, but more personal.

Unfortunately I let the morning meditations slip in the past year (circumstances, slipped a lot of good habits, exercise too, slowly crawling back out, shitty year for me). I usually don't do New Year's resolutions, but this is one. I do still attend the sangha, though.

BTW I'm not Buddhist. I like some parts of it, I can bear spirituality (suspension of disbelief and some of it actually makes sense as a metaphorical experience that is hard to explain words), but when it slides into religion (and Buddhism definitely has that, too) it just really creeps me out. You're in a susceptible mindstate, and there are some aspects of Buddhism I strongly disagree with on an ethical(-ish) level. So much when after a particularly religious (almost sermon-like talk by a Buddhist monk) meeting, it even bothered my during my own meditations for a few days because the bad aftertaste kept surfacing.

But that's okay, the group is quite diverse and we all bring in our own themes and stuff. They're also quite literally one of the nicest groups of people I've ever met.

[0] which is also useful, btw. mainly for bolstering focus and both dealing with and letting go of stress. especially the unnecessary stress. but I found I need to do that at least multiple times a week, more like a training, in order to take the benefits with me in the rest of the day. compassion meditation provided insights that sticks longer (but practice helps of course).

Re: How bad are things?

#119
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a christian for a very long time, finding myself sliding away, just don't find the solace in it anymore? Any thoughts? I still find myself attracted to the ideas - grace, forgiveness, love, a relationship with god, just so attractive - but just can't seem to make the bridge from it to the daily grind.

This thread is getting old but for now: Did anyone teach you the more advanced parts? I've updated my profile to link to a site that I feel includes useful material (and yes, I am part of that bunch in a way.) I might get around to adding some kind of contact details for myself, but for now I wont.

I'm not looking to be converted, but I'm going to check your link anyway. If there's some thing that can be called "advanced Christianity", then it's my (other) religious duty to check it out :)

Re: How bad are things?

#120
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was happier when I was religious. That's the main reason I've considered going back to it. Couldn't do it :(

I'm in the same boat. The one thing that so far has been promising - after about 10 years of 'nothing' since I left my faith - has been zen buddhism. It tickles my 'theological' side by providing an incredibly rich history of thoughts and thinkers that is almost entirely unknown to me (in contrast to Christian theology). More importantly, at least in the form at which I'm exposed to it here, it explicitly promotes no…

Check out wkup.org and see if there's one near you. I don't know your age, it's aimed mostly at young people, but not too young either (I'm 35) and the groups are diverse and each have their own take (they're not always quite zen Buddhism in a strict sense, though).
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