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“f.lux has been ready to ship for iOS for four years, but we need Apple's help.”

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Re: “f.lux has been ready to ship for iOS for four years, but we need Apple's help.”

#111

Post by SapphireSun »

lispit wrote: post #100
coldtea wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I said "obvious and trivial thing to do once you know that blue light affects melatonin production." That doesn't change my argument. That too was known for ages, and still no light changing apps for it like flux (with the exception of a Linux app which I think came later).

>That too was known for ages, and still no light changing apps for it like flux How is Joseph Programmer von Notasleepscientist supposed to know that a blue-light dimming filter is something that he might want before he sees the effect in action? I'll give some credit to f.lux for popularizing the idea, but once the idea is out there, there are only two ways you can implement it: postprocessing in software, or postpr…

This fact is in neuroscience and psychology text books. It has been well known for quite a while. That said, it's true that others haven't done this prior to f.lux coming out. From a business model perspective, they are making a utility that could have been bundled into the OS. It's a small feature, not a whole business, unless they can gain exclusive use of their invention.

Whether this patent protection incentive was necessary for them to try to get their product out there in the marketplace is a harder question to answer. Certainly, they have chosen a business model that relies on getting the public familiar with the technology and then licensing it to manufacturers. It does seem to me that many fewer people would know about flux if they were charging for it initially, but it also doesn't seem like a huge leap forward tech wise, though it may provide a lot of value. I'm kind of on the fence.

EDIT: I did a little digging. While I happened to have known about this fact for a long time, and am pretty sure it was in my textbooks as of around 2005 or 2006, it seems this may have been discovered around 2001. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11487664

Re: “f.lux has been ready to ship for iOS for four years, but we need Apple's help.”

#113

Post by upofadown »

lispit wrote: post #27
joosters wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with that? It's commercial software, and they are nice enough to let you use a copy for free. They aren't (AFAIK) doing anything remotely malicious, like grabbing user data or bundling malware. It doesn't add advertising to your computer. (I'm not sure if f.lux does any update checking, which some people might count as unacceptable)

It's the "patent pending" part that sucks. They're trying to patent the idea of changing your video card's CLUT (color look-up table) to reduce eye strain, which is a fairly obvious and trivial thing to do once you know that blue light affects melatonin production.

The original stated intent of f.lux was to reduce eye strain by matching the colour temperature of the screen to your surroundings. The idea about circadian light came later, it was probably their users that came up with that.

... which would hurt my head except that I have concluded that software patents are just straight up insane. There is no point in trying to figure anything out with respect to them.

Re: “f.lux has been ready to ship for iOS for four years, but we need Apple's help.”

#114

Post by upofadown »

coldtea wrote: post #92
lispit wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said "obvious and trivial thing to do once you know that blue light affects melatonin production. " In the past people did other hacks with CLUTs (like some early 3D games baking gamma correction into the CLUT so that proper linear lighting could be displayed without an expensive postprocessing pass). If you were aware of the blue light effect (I'm not a sleep scientist, I don't know how long they've been aware of…

> I said "obvious and trivial thing to do once you know that blue light affects melatonin production." That doesn't change my argument. That too was known for ages, and still no light changing apps for it like flux (with the exception of a Linux app which I think came later).

Actually, the stuff about blue light and melatonin in humans was discovered by biologists in the 90s. They get all the credit here. Obvious applications of that knowledge would not normally be patentable, but the US patent office is pretty much batshit insane at this point.

Re: “f.lux has been ready to ship for iOS for four years, but we need Apple's help.”

#115

Post by Bud »

Nullabillity wrote: post #104
Bud wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except we shouldn't, because about 98% of people can't keep their devices secure, at all, if root is just floating around aimlessly for any apps to grab any privs. The security record of Android vs iOS illustrates this extremely well. The gatekeeper model works for mobile devices.

And a brick of clay is even more secure. That doesn't mean it's a replacement for a computer. Not that Apple has a particularly great security track record anyway. Remember jailbreakme.com?

Why would we possibly care about jailbreakme.com, or think that any security issue involving an intentionally-jailbroken phone would in any way reflect on Apple? Are you seriously bringing up stuff that was patched in iOS 1.1.2? Dude. It's 2015.

Also, it's really quite clear that the iPhone and iOS devices in general are, in fact, THE replacement for computers for hundreds of millions of users. So I don't think we really need to waste time debating that. Apple won. Apple succeeded in making a device which is useful for that purpose.

Re: “f.lux has been ready to ship for iOS for four years, but we need Apple's help.”

#116

Post by pbhjpbhj »

elipsey wrote: post #31
lispit wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the "patent pending" part that sucks. They're trying to patent the idea of changing your video card's CLUT (color look-up table) to reduce eye strain, which is a fairly obvious and trivial thing to do once you know that blue light affects melatonin production.

Yep. They care so much about public helath that no one is allowed to be healthier with paying them. Classy move.

Can't you level that complaint at all pharma firms though too?

At least if it doesn't encourage those behind f.lux to continue beneficial activities (promoting the benefit of redshifted screen use) then it should encourage others to develop health focussed apps in the hope of getting paid?

FWIW I use redshift.

Re: “f.lux has been ready to ship for iOS for four years, but we need Apple's help.”

#117

Post by kuschku »

pnt12 wrote: post #108
kuschku wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (b) disassemble, decompile, attempt to discover the source code or structure, sequence and organization of, or otherwise reverse engineer, the Software (except to the extent applicable law prohibits restrictions on reverse engineering); This is already completely null and void in multiple jurisdictions. I don’t think these developers have even consulted a lawyer while writing their EULA.

Not that I read EULAs often, but I think that's quite a common clause. They do talk about exceptions in some jurisdictions at the end. A bit off-topic, but what I do find hilarious are websites EULAs, when you're not even asked to agree before using the service. Then you somehow discover them in a hidden page and they state "by using this site, you agree with our terms". That seems ludicrous, since you can't agree wi…

Actually, there was a case with online EULAs where the user had to check a box to agree with them, and even those were found to be legally null and void for any non-standard clauses, as you can’t expect a user who wants to buy something online to read a 40 page contract.

Re: “f.lux has been ready to ship for iOS for four years, but we need Apple's help.”

#118

Post by joosters »

kobayashi wrote: post #106
joosters wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a form of monitoring. Some update checks run whenever you start the program, so in the case of a program like f.lux, the developer gets to see exactly when you turn on and use your computer. Or, the update check might run periodically, in which case it's a constant survey of who in the world is running your code. That alone is a vast amount of information. Also, many programs send a lot of details about your com…

That's a great point. You didn't say that you necessarily disagree with that monitoring, if you do, how do you feel about using Google Chrome, with it's near-constant communication with Google servers, looking for updates and alike?

I don't use chrome!

Re: “f.lux has been ready to ship for iOS for four years, but we need Apple's help.”

#119

Post by elipsey »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #116
elipsey wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. They care so much about public helath that no one is allowed to be healthier with paying them. Classy move.

Can't you level that complaint at all pharma firms though too? At least if it doesn't encourage those behind f.lux to continue beneficial activities (promoting the benefit of redshifted screen use) then it should encourage others to develop health focussed apps in the hope of getting paid? FWIW I use redshift.

Pharma patents are less abstract. They patent a product, not the idea of making a product.

Changing a pallete was a solved problem. "Doing something when it's a time" was a solved problem. But if you change a CLUT "becuase it's a time" your software belongs to someone else. It seems like the only innvoation here is observing a need discovered by health researchers, and patenting the existing components of the solution before someone else does.

I'm would find it a bit suprising if someone on HN really thought that changing a CLUT because of the time is so hard that no one could figure out how without the promise of a government granted monopoly on the idea.

I will hasten to add that actually implementing, marketing, and maintaining a real life multi-platform proprietary solution sounds hard, in the sense of being plenty of work, and I think lots of people would gladly pay for that service.

The question we should be asking is: where is the public good in the government intervening to reduce competition in this space by creating a new abstract property right?

Re: “f.lux has been ready to ship for iOS for four years, but we need Apple's help.”

#120

Post by Spivak »

coldtea wrote: post #51
lispit wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the "patent pending" part that sucks. They're trying to patent the idea of changing your video card's CLUT (color look-up table) to reduce eye strain, which is a fairly obvious and trivial thing to do once you know that blue light affects melatonin production.

> It's the "patent pending" part that sucks. They're trying to patent the idea of changing your video card's CLUT (color look-up table) to reduce eye strain, which is a fairly obvious and trivial thing to do once you know that blue light affects melatonin production. On the other hand, since nobody else has done it (or patented it yet), real life proves that it's not that "obvious". Like the "egg of Columbus" some th…

Somebody else has already done it. https://github.com/jonls/redshift has been by go-to for a few years now. It's my suspicion that Jon has no intention of patenting the idea.
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