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Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

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Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#111

Post by caseysoftware »

user_0001 wrote: post #69
Udo wrote: post #35

I've been working as a freelancer for a bit more than a year now and let me offer a counter perspective. This article is a report from the absolute bottom. Part of the problem is the clientele: data scraping jobs are the shadiest, worst-paid jobs you can take on as a programmer. Also, offering the client to pay what they think is fair is a monumentally bad idea. The bigger problem is the perception of value. I regula…

>To an average person, programming is not a valuable thing +1 And any changes you are asked to make are not "easy" nor "quick" nor could they "do it in an hour if I knew how" I like to give the example that if you were having a house built, when they were putting the final touches to it, painting the walls, screwing lightbulbs etc. It may delay the house being ready, it may cost a bit more if you decide you want to m…

All of that is why I wrote this:

http://caseysoftware.com/blog/so-you-want-to-build-an-app

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#112

Post by jedrek »

zippergz wrote: post #71
robotkilla wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a freelancer for almost 4 years and I have yet to make money via any sort of website. The clientele's expectations are borderline delusional for the price they want to pay. I get all of my contracts through recommendations from past clients and colleagues and can charge from $60 to $90 per hour (the most I charged was $250 per hour for a job I didn't want to do and didn't expect the client to accept).

I don't know where you're located, but $60/hr seems insanely low. Annualized as a full time job that's $125k/yr. not terrible, but quite a bit less than what a good developer can make as base salary at a tech company. But that tech company job comes with benefits, paid vacation, stability, and possibly equity and bonuses. Plus the freelance gigs are rarely actually full time (even if you have enough clients on a stea…

...in a handful of markets.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#113

Post by drinchev »

ivm wrote: post #81
drinchev wrote: post #7

This is all wrong. Click-bait title. Some thoughts by a discouraged person in a globalised world and a general conclusion that doesn't make any sense if you read the article. Maybe the OP shouldn't look for projects in oDesk-type websites. I don't do that and I'm really happy working as a freelancer. For anyone wondering how to find freelance projects. You should go and look for local clients, networking, contact com…

> You should go and look for local clients, networking, contact companies that look for developers and try to persuade them that they can count on you too, etc. Every time in these discussions people ignore the fact that there're thousands of developers outside of US/EU who can't just "look for local clients". Not so many companies want to hire a remote employee without some kind of protection. I'm working via Upwork…

I'm coming from Bulgaria. This is my second year in Berlin. You are right. On that topic the money that I earned in my country of origin represent half the rate I'm earning right now.

As I also stated the world is globalised. It takes me 2 movies time to visit my family.

You can see what's on your radar and if you can't find clients locally, go for business trips around your country ( VISA I guess would not be a problem for a couple of weeks trip ). Nobody will stop you from working wherever you want if you prove yourself.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#114

Post by wikwocket »

robotkilla wrote: post #102
zippergz wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you're located, but $60/hr seems insanely low. Annualized as a full time job that's $125k/yr. not terrible, but quite a bit less than what a good developer can make as base salary at a tech company. But that tech company job comes with benefits, paid vacation, stability, and possibly equity and bonuses. Plus the freelance gigs are rarely actually full time (even if you have enough clients on a stea…

Based in the midwest. I agree that $60 per hour is low. If you know of anyone who will pay more, please send them my way :)

If you ever charged $250 an hour (even if that was the "I hate you go away" rate), then congrats, that's your new hourly rate. Everyone paying less is getting a screaming deal on the friends and family plan.

Try charging more for new clients, and walking your rate up each year for existing clients. In my experience this results in one awkward phone call/email exchange a year and approximately zero negative side effects.

This is how I brought my rate from $30 an hour to $90, also in the Midwest.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#115

Post by hackerboos »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #110
YooLi wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first month you spend 140 hours of pounding the virtual pavement looking for clients outside of the markets for lemons that are the freelancing sites. This is the part many people have problems with, myself included. Any tips?

Firstly, don't take advice that impacts your ability to feed your kids from random guys on the Internet. Having said that, sell yourself as a niche provider, and act surprised when asked to do generic stuff. The simplest niche to start with is "lives in the same town as me". not London or NY that does not count - think town of 100k. Now choose three business needs (sales funnel management, tickets on smartphones, GPS…

>Firstly, don't take advice that impacts your ability to feed your kids from random guys on the Internet

I'd normally agree but anyone on HN worth their salt knows who Patrick McKenzie is.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#116

Post by sqldba »

mgkimsal wrote: post #91
sqldba wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely agree. For freelance/contract work the price should be about double expected base salary. First of all because agencies get away with charging that much so you're just undercutting yourself needlessly unless you join in. But secondly because there are big costs; liability insurance and software licensing being some of them.

"First of all because agencies get away with charging that much" Perhaps they deliver a different sort of value than an individual freelancer? Having a larger staff, having multiple people with different expertise, separate billing/financial folks, admin folks, etc. They provide a different set of services and customer experience - some people want/need that, some don't, but just because agency ABC is charing $200/hr…

Fair points, you're thinking on a different scale for me. The agencies I'm thinking of were little more than chop shops who hire and then resell. The only positive they could give you is if someone is sick they can back fill; but having seen it in action that's really just someone unfamiliar with the processes warming a seat for a few days and not doing much.

MSDN $2kpa. Liability $1kpa. I guess it's not "a lot" but if you're only doing a little work (as I was) it was a substantial portion of the profit gone; I spent more on hardware though.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#117

Post by eru »

tagfolder wrote: post #60
eru wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not developer1, but I'm happy to give you some pointers. My email address is in my profile. Why not put your scripts and scrapers on github?

thanks! About scripts I think they won't be useful for anyone, because most of them are like: "scrape all apps from app store", "scape 30 million business profiles from website A.", etc. But anyway will try to put some :)

It would be great if they would be useful for somebody, but here you are just trying to impress would-be employers.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#118

Post by JabavuAdams »

zippergz wrote: post #71
robotkilla wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a freelancer for almost 4 years and I have yet to make money via any sort of website. The clientele's expectations are borderline delusional for the price they want to pay. I get all of my contracts through recommendations from past clients and colleagues and can charge from $60 to $90 per hour (the most I charged was $250 per hour for a job I didn't want to do and didn't expect the client to accept).

I don't know where you're located, but $60/hr seems insanely low. Annualized as a full time job that's $125k/yr. not terrible, but quite a bit less than what a good developer can make as base salary at a tech company. But that tech company job comes with benefits, paid vacation, stability, and possibly equity and bonuses. Plus the freelance gigs are rarely actually full time (even if you have enough clients on a stea…

> I don't know where you're located, but $60/hr seems insanely low

Where are you located?

What's the median (not mean) cost of a detached family home, where you live?

In your situation, do you have to work 5 days a week, or do you work fewer?

Could you just decide on any given day that you don't feel like doing any work, and do something else, instead?

All relevant questions. SF and NY are not the only cities in the world with excellent software developers.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#119

Post by robotkilla »

wikwocket wrote: post #114
robotkilla wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based in the midwest. I agree that $60 per hour is low. If you know of anyone who will pay more, please send them my way :)

If you ever charged $250 an hour (even if that was the "I hate you go away" rate), then congrats, that's your new hourly rate. Everyone paying less is getting a screaming deal on the friends and family plan. Try charging more for new clients, and walking your rate up each year for existing clients. In my experience this results in one awkward phone call/email exchange a year and approximately zero negative side effec…

> that's your new hourly rate

I don't think this is the case. The client was volatile (random screaming and swearing at people in the office and me in my first and only meeting with him, plus a vague personal threat made against me if I were to "fuck him on the contract").

I knew what I was walking into and boosted my price accordingly. The only reason he went for it is due to having (or at least thinking he had) no other options. I worked fast and was extremely careful with my time. Everything went well, he paid me and I never heard from that company again.

> walking your rate up each year for existing clients

How do you get repeat business? It seems that my clients are happy with me after each project (no complaints and I typically get recommendations) however I haven't had any repeat business. I suspect this is due to working with very small startups with low budgets.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#120

Post by lifeisstillgood »

hackerboos wrote: post #115
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, don't take advice that impacts your ability to feed your kids from random guys on the Internet. Having said that, sell yourself as a niche provider, and act surprised when asked to do generic stuff. The simplest niche to start with is "lives in the same town as me". not London or NY that does not count - think town of 100k. Now choose three business needs (sales funnel management, tickets on smartphones, GPS…

>Firstly, don't take advice that impacts your ability to feed your kids from random guys on the Internet I'd normally agree but anyone on HN worth their salt knows who Patrick McKenzie is.

I meant me :-)
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