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Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#111

Post by 3pt14159 »

emergentcypher wrote: post #101
3pt14159 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're different. Part of American foreign policy is that "truth is the best propaganda" not the only propaganda, mind you, but the best. The West also does have a policy of expanding liberal democracies and integrating them into a world trade frame work. Cases where we don't follow this policy is in areas where we're afraid of a counter weight emerging. For example, the Middle Eastern policy is one where we foster in…

> The Russian mindset is different. It's more... brutal? I'm struggling for the right word. Severe is the word I use. If I were permitted to generalize the Russian people, I would generalize them as severe. Extremely warm and loyal people, but quick to swing to the opposite end of the spectrum when disturbed. I'm married to a Russian and spend lots of time with Russians. My wife tells a joke about a westerner hanging…

That is a much better word. Thank you.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#112

Post by dang »

3princip wrote: post #58
korisnik wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. My country was created by the democratic independence referendum of 1991, in accordance with Yugoslavia's constitution. Altho sadly, after the declaration of independence and its international acceptance, a guy named Milosevic who committed coup d'etats in Montenegro, Kosovo, Vojvodina and attempted a coup d'etat in Slovenia decided that he disagreed with our independence and started a bloody war. But thanks for…

Slovenia, sorry, my mistake. Yes I remember when your militia shot unarmed surrendering conscripts, using weapons provided by NATO members. All of which was a strong catalyst for the bloody wars which followed in neighboring republics.

Please don't conduct political battles on HN.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#113

Post by temo4ka »

snitko wrote: post #97
johnnydoebk wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> When you point out to them how internet or cellphone networks or taxis or a number of other things is actually cheaper in Russia (or in eastern Europe in general) because of the lack of regulations or government interference, they go in denial. Cool. I'm from a small 3rd world country. Just as in Russia the police officers sometimes rape detainees with bottles of champagne, there is literally no justice, but lots…

I think countries have problems because of governments, not because their governments aren't strong enough. Paying more to police officers doesn't make them behave any more civil. An example of that is the US where police abuse is widespread and incarceration rate is highest in the world. Statistically, in terms of police interaction, I'd be much safer in your country than in the US. The real problem is absence of th…

I agree with you on this one, but I have hard time believing that between U.S. and Russian governments the former is more dangerous to its citizens than the latter.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#114

Post by snitko »

temo4ka wrote: post #113
snitko wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think countries have problems because of governments, not because their governments aren't strong enough. Paying more to police officers doesn't make them behave any more civil. An example of that is the US where police abuse is widespread and incarceration rate is highest in the world. Statistically, in terms of police interaction, I'd be much safer in your country than in the US. The real problem is absence of th…

I agree with you on this one, but I have hard time believing that between U.S. and Russian governments the former is more dangerous to its citizens than the latter.

Well, think twice. Just by incarceration rate alone you can tell that the US govt is more dangerous to its own citizens. I'm also much more likely to be shot by a cop in the US than in Russia. Russia also doesn't execute people (there's a moratorium on capital punishment). What else do you need to know?

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#115

Post by cema »

3princip wrote: post #100
lambdadmitry wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I add yet another story to this thread? I was a member of municipal polling board during last Putin's election. Honestly I did my best to prevent fraud, and yet the voting protocol (a paper where all ballots are summed up, it goes to an higher-level board) was rewritten right under my nose (+25% to a leading candidate, guess which one), with police covering it up. I tried to warn a friendly member of higher-level…

This is very suspect and very hard to believe. I've been on polling boards in a much (much) smaller country, and it would be logistically impossible to carry out fraud on that scale (25%) without it being widely documented. The suggestion that there are enough police (including SWAT none the less) to watch over tens of thousands of polling stations and enforce this is even stranger. And this is from a miniscule count…

  I've been on polling boards in a much (much) smaller country
A different country. Different culture. Different people. Cannot extrapolate.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#116

Post by cema »

ctlby wrote: post #69
dijit wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an inverse story from yours. I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american. We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics. I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year. What I saw was…

A handful of conversations and a couple months of travel will not give a Westerner an understanding of Russia. The vast majority USSR emigrants under a certain age (that is, people truly familiar with both systems) would disagree with you in the strongest possible terms. I'm one of them. There is no moral equivalence.

I agree, but I think you mean "above a certain age".

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#117

Post by cema »

snitko wrote: post #94
AlexandrB wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What happens in the US or in Europe is that if you need stuff done or if you need to win in court, you hire expensive lobbyists or lawyers. Lobbyists and Lawyers are private individuals, corrupt officials are government agents. I thought you were against "big government"?

I am. Lobbyists and lawyers only exist because there is a government monopoly on law.

Lobbyists yes, but not lawyers.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#118

Post by cema »

marincounty wrote: post #47
yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

I'll take you word that living in Russia today is better than what your parents went through. I've only watched Russia from afar. As a kid, I heard about the shortages of TP, and in some cases food, but I don't remember you guys having a homeless problem? Or, huge masses of people in extreme poverty. My views don't matter. I was young. As I stated, I'll take your word it's better now. I have one question about modern…

  I don't remember you guys having a homeless problem? 
  Or, huge masses of people in extreme poverty.
Both existed. Homeless people were escorted outside of big cities (often jailed, but not always), so foreign journalists would not see them on the streets of the places they were allowed to visit. I estimate the level of homelessness was less than that of the USA, however. The level of poverty, in my estimation, was much higher, and it affected the most vulnerable members of the society, primarily the elderly.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#119

Post by snitko »

cema wrote: post #117
snitko wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am. Lobbyists and lawyers only exist because there is a government monopoly on law.

Lobbyists yes, but not lawyers.

Lawyers in their current incarnation wouldn't exists and wouldn't be able to charge those high prices unless they weren't state licenced (you can't be a lawyer without state permission, basically) and unless they had to deal with monopoly on law, which is government.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#120

Post by Ras_ »

vbezhenar wrote: post #24

Honestly, I believe more to people who did those missiles, than to some random Dutch experts (with all respect, of course). Almaz-Antey did their own investigation, they did experiments, they have very expert knowledge about those missiles, so it's very important not to throw away their facts. They might be influenced by Russia politics, of course, but Netherlands, as part of Europe, definitely follows anti-Russian p…

They might be influenced by Russian politics?

Almaz-Antey is 100% owned by the Russian federation. The state is also their biggest customer, and nearly 90% of the business is with the military. Almaz-Antey produces very high priority strategic systems, like air and missile defenses.

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