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Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

independent.co.uk

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Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#111
post #110

At the risk of sounding cynical and jaded, is anyone remotely surprised by this? The EU has been pushing car encouraging manufacturers to work harder at car safety for longer, and more effectively than the US has. Seat belts? Volvo. Air bags? First made standard in Mercs and Porsches, at a time when Ford and GM were lobbying against being made to include them. They became optional and then standard between the mid to…

Rather than write many replies to those in this thread (often rehashing the same thing) I am going to reply here and address it all. There are many people claiming outdated info as current fact and misinterpreting what the differences actually imply in US v. EU occupant crash protection. Regarding the airbags. The US now requires advanced frontal airbags in all passenger cars and light trucks. It started phasing them…

With time seat belt use became much more prevalent in US. At that point depowered airbags were allowed and they rapidly became common place (due to the attention created from the deaths and injuries caused my the prior systems - of which there were few around 200 at that time, vastly out numbered by those benefited) and practically no cost difference. That brought US and EU airbags more in line, but there was still a critical difference. The US airbags were often larger. It was not all about preventing the ejection of an unbelted occupant though. Another consideration was the front middle seat occupant (most often a child with only a lap belt at best) which was still common due to non-extended cab pickups and family/luxury cars with a front bench seat.

Which now brings me to advanced frontal airbags which are now required in US in entire passenger and light truck fleet for just over nine years. Essentially the minimum is that the system calculates occupant weight to determine if the airbag will be prevented from deploying. There is moreover a requirement that the SRS warning label state that an advanced airbag system is in place (with specific clear wording) and also an indicator light (also specifically clearly labeled) indication when the passenger front airbag is disabled. It is very common for the advanced frontal airbag system to also take into account factors such as collision forces and whether the occupant is belted or not in deciding whether to deploy the airbag or not. There are now also systems in place that in addition to all of that also take into account individual seat and spool positions. More over dual igniter systems are becoming more common place, so that front airbag can be inflated more rapidly (though more forcefully) only if needed. In addition multi-stage and variable output air bag systems are permitted in US as well, though they are rarer and typically in more costly cars.

So it really is becoming that US regulations are coming more in line to that of EU and with time and further tweaking of the regs it will become a moot difference - the airbags will be very smart and only deploy most forcefully only when safe and most necessary. Along the way there were many benefits. The US regs are not stagnant nor created in a vacuum as some seem to think. There was history, market forces, and data to what took place and when. Here is one further benefit to the US system that not many people expect: Over time the rules were in fact different across Europe regarding air bags. For example Spain's requirements were slightly different from France's at different times and what happens when you bring that car into Poland and sell it? What about if you bring an older Polish car and sell it in Spain or France, oh boy! There are a number of differences that fall under the US advanced airbag umbrella all handled differently in those three countries at different times, for example in what is permitted regarding the switch based on weight vs. a physical switch and if the seat belt is latched or not to how this is all indicated and labeled. It's a real mess. In US, you just flip the sun visor down and read what you have. Even the procedure for after market alteration specifies that that warning label must be amended appropriately - and how that is to be worded is very specifically laid-out. It's quite impressive to me actually how well this all was thought-out.

Now as to the article. It's not a very good article really. Here's the paper itself (pdf):

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/11297...

I've read through parts and I'll not touch the issue of how it relates to TTIP, but really it shows both in some ways how some EU regs are seeming better and how some US regs as well are seemingly better when you examine crashes statistically. Of course there is not nearly as much raw data for example in the headlight example (you can read the paper itself for details, essentially they had to cull the data down to one hour in one month per each territory and that effects confidence in the result). But to my eyes it really is not all that damning for the US airbag system. The worst results are for high speed driver side front/side airbag deployments (which are difficult to begin with) but when I read through I am not convinced it is factoring all differences from region to region sufficiently to have such a strong claim. For example it's only more recently that advanced airbags were introduced and the early systems were cruder than the current commonly used systems. Cars tend to stay on the road longer in US than EU (particularly in the regions without inspections where my further points will hold as well) so there were many cars with cruder SRS in place. There are many rural areas in those places the roads are not illuminated, there is oncoming and side traffic, wild-life, and people travel are high speed. Further there are more higher GVW cars on the roads in US which could affect the side impact statistics largely to the extent highlighted in my opinion. Notice how well the US does in rollover, that's largely because the market here is different and so it was addressed because there were more cars more prone to roll overs and more people were suffering. So I read over the paper and I personally do not yet believe it controlled for the differences in territories sufficiently.

That said, it's an excellent paper with some surprising results. What I take away from it is really it is a further impetus to move the advanced airbag systems in place in US farther to the higher tech and at least dual-mode operation across the entire fleet. You will never be able to fully address the belted vs. unbelted completely in US simply for practical reasons like people using light trucks in a manner where they back or egress the vehicle often so it's good to still account for it intelligently. Also it would seem wise for the EU to investigate US illumination requirements as they pertain to pedestrian safety cause the results were tantalizing there (though possibly not controlled well enough as well as lacking sufficient data) in the same way that I would hope that US is investigating autodipping intelligent headlights now.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#112
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> designed to require an airbag to be able to stop an adult male not wearing a seatbelt, What? To me it seems obivous that the right thing to do is have the seatbelt be part of the switch for the airbag -- no seatbelt, no detonation!

I have two German-made, US-delivery cars with seatbelt switches and pressure mats (occupancy detection) in the passenger seats. I was hoping that this made them smarter than the Toyota and Volvo I own which have no such things wired into their airbag systems, which certainly work as described in this thread.

I want to clarify that in 2000 Volvo began selling cars in US with dual stage airbags (S80 at least) and by 2002 (in some cases MY03 cars though) all US Volvos had them for both front airbags.

Dual stage does not mean having the seat weight sensor. That is what is part of what is termed advanced airbag system in US market.

The Volvo system would inflate the airbag less or more rapidly based on force of collision and whether the seat was belted or not. You could have the dealer install a passenger side airbag lock-out though.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an amateur racer, and I can tell you that seat belts are only a small part of the equation that makes racing crashes survivable. Racing seats are built to fit individual drivers, for instance, and the cocoon -- the portion of the frame where the driver sits -- is designed to protect the seat. Additionally, race cars are designed to essentially disintegrate in hard wrecks -- the cocoon stays intact, but the rest b…

There are certainly a lot of other things in racing that contribute to safety. But the biggie is always the harness. A roll cage won't do jack for you if you're flying around in the cockpit smashing into the roll cage. Crumple zones are also ineffective if you're not strapped in. Race cars don't have air bags. If you're strapped in tightly, the air bag adds nothing. I've been in a crash where the belt saved my life,…

One of my cars has three point seat belts in front that do not spool. It is infuriating to unlatch the seat belt every time I have to back-up the car or reach for something on the passenger side. Racing harnesses are even more restrictive when adjusted properly.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same racing drivers who have to wear top-line racing helmets connected to HANS devices, wear fire-resistant overalls, have medical teams on immediate standby, and who are often strapped in by their mechanics before heading off? I think you may be overlooking an awful lot of what makes modern motor racing safer than it was in the past. (and that's ignoring the number of serious injuries and driver deaths that stil…

I'm looking at the kind of accidents where an airbag is supposed to be effective. An airbag will do nothing for you if the car is burning. The first and foremost safety device in a race car is the racing belt. The belt means you slow down with the car, which is much less deceleration than if your body hits the dashboard. (The point of crumple zones in the car is to reduced peak deceleration. In order for that to work…

The fire suit and undergarments are what keeps you alive long enough to be extracted in the event of a fire. They are literally rated in terms of how long they protect you commonly listed as the "Time to 2nd Degree Burn" specification which is arrived at by taking the TPP rating per the SFI spec and halving it.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also want to wear a HANS device every time you drive? That's a big part of the reason drivers walk away from horrific crashes these days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device

The seat belts are the most effective. Helmets and HANS add to that, but the belts are the #1 safety device. Another anecdote is in order. My father was a fighter jet instructor. The usual arrangement is tandem seating. He related an incident where the jet went off the runway, the nose gear sunk into the mud and the jet went up on its nose. The guy in back had taken off his shoulder harness while taxiing, but left th…

Thank you for sharing the story.

I too think that being buckled-in is the most important, but a 4 or 5 point harness will just not work in a street car. Maybe my best advice is for you to read the relevant sections in the SCCA handbook. Forget about the cage, assume just a cross bar and harness. You will see that it makes it impossible to have the harness at a safe orientation for the driver yet allow a rear passenger. Also when you add the cross bar as it also required, it is now unsafe for a rear passenger.

Further any car with a cage has other compromises and some of those reasons for a cage are for things like being able to quickly jack the car up and rigidity (not just safety) but limits how people can enter and exit for example.

A harness is just not a good fit for a street car. The three point seat belt is an excellent compromise.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iirc, Volvo did a lot of testing to find the optimum setup in an ordinary passenger car. The 3-point belts worked best, as they were the easiest to get out of after an accident. Remember that race cars typically have people waiting in the event of an accident to assist in removing the person from the car. In a more typical accident, it can be much longer before help arrives. As a result, seat belt setups must be easy…

The 5 point racing harnesses have a very easy to use quick release on it, as it releases all the straps at once. You don't have to unthread your arm from it, like you do with a typical car 3 point system, and the release on typical auto belts is inferior. The webbing is narrower and thinner, too. I wonder if that was a factor in the Volvo study.

When I crew it takes a few minutes to adjust the seat and harness anytime we have a driver change. The genius of the modern three point seat belt is how easy it is to put on (comparable to lap belt, yet much more effective), how comfortable it is to wear (with the advent of the spool and height adjustment), and effective (due to seatbelt pretensioners).

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#117
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree massively with this. Most of the problems with drivers these days seem to be caused by inattention, sleepyness etc. The first thing anyone says in a small ish accident (especially as a cyclist/motorcyclist) is SORRY MATE DIDN'T SEE YOU THERE

I actually wonder if there is a limit on the size of the A pillar in cars. The car I drive right now seems like it has a larger A pillar than the (super old) car I had before, presumably for safety. But it's almost caused me to get into several accidents as I am almost completely blind when slighting left. Just the other day I nearly hit a pedestrian who was crossing against the light. I slowed down for the turn but…

http://static.cardesignnews.com/CropUp/728x-/media/10926146/...

Sadly never made it to production.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#118
post #4

The most interesting part of this for me is that there is a difference at all. The difference is not explained in the article. I've never lived in the US; what is the difference between EU and US cars in this respect? Edit for clarity: What I meant, is /why/ is there such a difference in safety? What physical differences between the cars cause that?

I think you may appreciate my two part answer here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10280323

Essentially at this point there is much less difference than there used to be, I'm not convinced the paper addressed that completely, and the historical progression is detailed.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#119
post #8

I don't understand the issue here, cars sold in Europe already include many US cars obviously, and cars that sell in Europe are usually safety tested, for example by Euro NCAP. Here is a US car available in Europe, that has an excellent five star safety score in NCAP http://www.euroncap.com/en/results/jeep/cherokee/8871 Now if "research actually established that American models are much less safe when it comes to fro…

What you have to remember is that those European Chrysler efforts like the Jeep are not made in America. They are made by Magna Steyr in Austria alongside plenty of other SUV's - the BMW ones and the Mercedes ones have been made in the same OEM/contract facility over the years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Steyr

The KL (current Cherokee) is made in Toledo OH USA, even those sold in Europe. The most common engine for EU markets is made in Italy though. Magna Steyr has not made a Jeep for something like five years and never this current generation.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#120
post #8

I don't understand the issue here, cars sold in Europe already include many US cars obviously, and cars that sell in Europe are usually safety tested, for example by Euro NCAP. Here is a US car available in Europe, that has an excellent five star safety score in NCAP http://www.euroncap.com/en/results/jeep/cherokee/8871 Now if "research actually established that American models are much less safe when it comes to fro…

For that Cherokee the inflator for driver is different in the US v EU models. I believe that Arc manufactures them and they get used in the same Delphi and KSS housings to this day. The passenger unit is different though even noticeably externally. There are also regulatory differences pertaining to the seat sensor operation. Basically it costs money to do all this twice.
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