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Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

lukew.com

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Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#101

Post by Jweb_Guru »

lmm wrote: post #83
Trufa wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What things? One seems highly unlikely, the other might be impossible. In on would have to be able to read complex human thought, in the other we would basically would have to predict the future.

My phone already suggests where I might want to go for dinner tonight. It's getting pretty good at it. Holiday suggestions don't seem that far beyond our capabilities.

Yes, but you are free to disregard the suggestion and do something else, so UI still has to be built for that case.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#102

Post by kraig911 »

akurilin wrote: post #94

On that note, is there a really basic caveman-friendly resource out there for UX-illiterate developers like me to help us make decent user experience decisions? A best practices text, or a guide for how to avoid the most obvious usability mishaps? I've had to "teach" myself most of this stuff by looking at other people's UX, but my results are still "meh" at best. Help! :)

My best advise is to think of it almost procedural. Start off making something and test it yourself and you'll start smelling all the things off about it. Ideas to get to a good understanding incorporate a MLS into a search and try to pull off the simplest search (less form elements) you can getting the queried data you want.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#103

Post by Goladus »

huskyr wrote: post #86
briandear wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, in this particular case, I'd argue that this is incredibly relevant: Preacher preaches against UX sin. Commits UX sin with a non-zooming harlot.

No, it's not relevant at all. It's not a dumb rant against dropdowns: it's a well written piece with lots of examples and arguments that show which UX patterns are better than a dropdown for specific usecases. That's not preaching, it's explaining. Finding a small flaw in his site and using that to downplay the quality of the article and the competence of the author is shortsighted, rude and unfair. Nobody's perfect.…

Good point. I will say, though, that disabled zoom is a for more prevalent, annoying, and chronic problem than dropdowns.

It's orders of magnitude difference. Like, years to days. As in, maybe once or twice a year I get annoyed by a misplaced dropdown, whereas every couple of days I get annoyed by disabled zoom. One can make a solid critique of the wine at dinner but it's not irrelevant to point out the restaurant is on fire.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#104

Post by justuk »

brazzledazzle wrote: post #71
justuk wrote: post #59

I dislike the way mobile has become the new lowest common denominator for web development. It used to be IE6 because it was antiquated but now it's anything with a touch screen - mainly thinking how hover has been relegated to visual effects even though it's fine on non-touchscreens.

In the case of hover-based UIs is it more about common functionality? You can tap/click on both platforms, so is it easier to develop a single UI? One that uses the capabilities they have in common vs developing a unique interface for each device type?

It feels like desktop is taking a hit for the team because a less sophisticated member is tagging along. I watch all these websites convert over to responsive designs and very few of them are a step forward. It's like they've gone from tools aimed at adults to toys for children.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#105

Post by kryptiskt »

err4nt wrote: post #80
cbaleanu wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not. Disabling default zoom behavior is like hijacking the scroll bar - bad, ugly and puts users off. Also horrible is the tri state or undeterminate checkbox. All of the above are very trendy pieces of 'css and html codes' commonly found on popular DIY web dev sites. *edit: spelling

I do a lot of responsive design, and I turn zooming off So I CAN give you a proper responsive design that you can read and interact with on a small touchscreen. Why on earth would you prefer to pan around a desktop site designed for a big screen with a tiny cursor when you've got a tiny screen and a massive cursor (fingertip)?

You are making the world worse, what do I care if your site looks nice if I can't read the text? I happened across such a site when I tried to buy a train ticket from my phone a couple of weeks ago, absolutely horrible.

I simply don't get the calculus, people who don't need to zoom won't and they get to see a nice site. What on earth do you win by preventing people that need to zoom from doing that? That they get to see a nice design that they can't use? And that is supposed to be better than seeing a usable site that needs panning? That's insane. I certainly hope your kind of thinking will go away quickly.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#106

Post by justuk »

cjsaylor wrote: post #96
justuk wrote: post #59

I dislike the way mobile has become the new lowest common denominator for web development. It used to be IE6 because it was antiquated but now it's anything with a touch screen - mainly thinking how hover has been relegated to visual effects even though it's fine on non-touchscreens.

It's not about lowest common denominator. It's about what devices users are actually using to browse your site. If you make an awesome desktop version of the site at the expense of mobile, but majority are visiting on a small device, then you are alienating the majority. You have to keep perspective of why your are building something; if it is not for the users, then it is pointless.

It seems like a step backwards in sophistication all because these mobile devices were grouped into the same category as desktop. We go from tools that look like they were aimed at adults to simplistic toys. I see it all the time in user comments when websites switch to responsive designs. It's like we don't give a damn about desktop users because they are no longer fashionable.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#107

Post by ape4 »

eterm wrote: post #84
mschuster91 wrote: post #81

The advantage of dropdowns is their integration in the browser UI - which means stuff like VoiceOver works just fine.

I actually strongly agree here. If dropdown menus are so bad, then it's up to the user-agent to fix that. Remember that they're not actually elements, they're elements. If actions that require performing a can be implemented with a much better different UI for mobile or touch, then user agents are free (and encouraged) to do so.

Exactly - using standard html is a plus.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#108

Post by brudgers »

Trufa wrote: post #58
brudgers wrote: post #45

GUI's embody micromanagement as a virtue. GUI's in general should be a last resort. Computers are supposed to do our work automatically. Barring that, by delegation. Making rounded corners and gradients is easier than making something useful. that's why it gets so much attention. NoGUI.

I don't think it's a matter of last resort, rather correct use. GUIs are inevitable. You basically should only ask from the user what a computer can't possibly know, for example what date you want to travel for your holidays and how many units of that product do you want.

  "What day do you want to travel?"
   >
NoGUI.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#109

Post by err4nt »

wlesieutre wrote: post #88
err4nt wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do a lot of responsive design, and I turn zooming off So I CAN give you a proper responsive design that you can read and interact with on a small touchscreen. Why on earth would you prefer to pan around a desktop site designed for a big screen with a tiny cursor when you've got a tiny screen and a massive cursor (fingertip)?

How about giving me a proper responsive design, and then still letting me zoom in if your design sucks for me and the text is too small? Not everyone has the same eyesight or the same size phone.

If zooming is better than having a properly designed layout for the device you are using, how did all the app developers get it wrong? Nearly every app on my phone is formatted for a small touchscreen, and not simply a desktop-sized program on a desktop shrunk to fit my phone screen (allowing me to zoom in and push a tiny cursor around). Form follows function, and so an app designed for a mobile device would look different than an app designed for a desktop computer. The hardware and capabilities are very different.

The great part is, with recent support in CSS we can build one site and target desktop users and mobile users with entirely different hardware, and give them a unified experience and layout that's tailored to their device. When they use the desktop it's the same website, fit to their screen and ready to be used with a mouse and keyboard. When it's from a mobile device - all of the same information and actions are still there, just presented in a way that's intuitive and natural to users of a mobile device.

If you've ever used a mobile simulator on a computer you'll know how awkward it is to emulate the most natural and smooth fingertip gestures with a mouse. It's clunky! Well trying to pretend you're a desktop with a mouse when youve got a tiny screen and a big mouse (fingertip) is just as awkward and useless.

With zooming enabled, every tap you make takes 300ms longer to register because it's listening to see if that tap is a tap or going to be part of a zooming gesture.

I design my stuff to look good well beyond normal tolerances for screen sizes, and trust me - I am not your enemy here. I do what I do to give the best experience and if zooming ended with an easier-to-use experience then for sure I would enable it.

I do a lot of other things to make it easy for mobile users too:

- use tel inputs for numerical entry (mobile users get a keypad instead of a keyboard)

- user email inputs for emails and turn off autocapitlize (mobile users get a keyboard with an '@' symbol)

- use retina graphics, or render imagery in code for retina and pixel-dense displays

- every layout I create works from 300px-1500px, and some of the more important elements in the layout I may get working from 200px-2000px to be certain they will work everywhere.

- I use a massive wish-list of fonts that includes great defaults for OS X, Windows, Linux, Android, and iOS

- I use the least amount of JavaScript that makes sense to accomplish what I need to do (I hate sites that constantly crash the tab on mobile)

- I add offline and web-app tags according to the project to help users who may add the site to home screen have the best experience (not all sites are built for web app mod)

- I also add in special icons just for mobile users so if they bookmark the site they will have a nice icon as well

- I disable text-selection or pointer-events for items that may be errantly tapped on, or to help you be able to more easily select text you are trying to select on mobile. Text selection, copy, and paste on mobile is a magnitude more difficult than for a desktop user

So I'm not just disabling it because somebody told me to, or showed me that's how it's done. I work hard and develop, and use these devices, and building a desktop site you can pan around does not provide as good an experience as a properly designed responsive site.

I'm a mobile user too, trust me when I say I fight for your experience to be the best there is!

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#110

Post by DanBC »

err4nt wrote: post #80
cbaleanu wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not. Disabling default zoom behavior is like hijacking the scroll bar - bad, ugly and puts users off. Also horrible is the tri state or undeterminate checkbox. All of the above are very trendy pieces of 'css and html codes' commonly found on popular DIY web dev sites. *edit: spelling

I do a lot of responsive design, and I turn zooming off So I CAN give you a proper responsive design that you can read and interact with on a small touchscreen. Why on earth would you prefer to pan around a desktop site designed for a big screen with a tiny cursor when you've got a tiny screen and a massive cursor (fingertip)?

You really need to stop disabling zoom. It's hostile to a wide range of users. This includes far more people than those with a traditional visual impairment.
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