How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference? • Hacker News Board

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#101

Post by dagw » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:16 PM UTC

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #89

tfinniga wrote: post #29

It's interesting to realize that if two groups have the same mean but different variability, the higher-variability group will have more outliers, on both the high end and the low end. The danger is a kind of genetic fatalism, assuming that what we should do is just to be determined by our genes and how our bodies work. For example, it's possible for a man to produce many children by impregnating lots of women concur…

> But even if we took the argument as fact, it doesn't mean that we have to accept every naive consequence. We don't need to say "Of course the vast majority of CEOs, world leaders, and very wealthy people are male, because the most intelligent people are almost all male". We can choose to have a better society than that. I don't think that intelligence is the most important factor for those positions, so let's talk…

Certainly for university teachers we don't want to solely go on 'intelligence'. Looking back at my university career the correlation between how good a teacher someone was and how they ranked globally as researchers within their field was at best very weakly correlated. In fact I think hiring undergraduate lecturers based on their research performance is a pretty flawed idea, but that's a different debate.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#102

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:16 PM UTC

Kelly2 wrote: post #99

golemotron wrote: post #36

I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. The current educational and political system is organized toward exclusively presenting the view that gender is a cultural construct and there are no differences between men and women other than plumbing. Men and women, on average, differ significantly on career choice, likes, dislikes, and motivation. And, it has…

> I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. Indeed, it's such a taboo that it's brought up here every time the subject is discussed here. Unless you would take all your information from radicalfeminist.com, I never saw a reputable news channel denying there would be differences between sexes. Actually, I see this meme of "Gender differences are taboo!" MUC…

[deleted]

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#103

Post by kaitai » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:18 PM UTC

jrs235 wrote: post #60

golemotron wrote: post #36

I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. The current educational and political system is organized toward exclusively presenting the view that gender is a cultural construct and there are no differences between men and women other than plumbing. Men and women, on average, differ significantly on career choice, likes, dislikes, and motivation. And, it has…

An excellent read is Why Gender Matters: What Parents and Teachers Need to Know about The Emerging Science of Sex Differences. http://amzn.to/1NKVQ6d

Another great read is Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine.

http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-D...

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#104

Post by jazzyk » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:20 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #78

golemotron wrote: post #36

I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. The current educational and political system is organized toward exclusively presenting the view that gender is a cultural construct and there are no differences between men and women other than plumbing. Men and women, on average, differ significantly on career choice, likes, dislikes, and motivation. And, it has…

> gender disparities across different occupations. I guess it would depend on the occupation. For example, I don't see much difference between nurses and doctors in terms of something that could be quantified as a gender-specific preference. It seems to me that the idea of "nurses are women, doctors are men" came about more from the idea that women were "too stupid" to be doctors and that it was a "man's job." Even t…

It has more to do with the pay disparity between nurses and doctors, rather than gender, these days.

While only 30% of active physicians in the US are female, the gender split among residents (entering the profession) is close to 50%/50%.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#105

Post by nshepperd » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:26 PM UTC

RodericDay wrote: post #88

Whomever wants a critical look at this kind of "psychology result", I really recommend checking out Cordelia Fine (Oxford, Cambridge, UCL educated) and "Delusions of Gender". She is a fun listen/read and explains really well the flaws in the science/reporting/interpretation of "gender science", from the statistical to the neurological. http://blip.tv/slowtv/delusions-of-gender-p1-cordelia-fine-4... https://en.wikiped…

I don't see how these links are a relevant counterpoint; they all seem to focus on claims about averages, that the OP deliberately did not talk about.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#106

Post by Kelly2 » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:27 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #102

Kelly2 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. Indeed, it's such a taboo that it's brought up here every time the subject is discussed here. Unless you would take all your information from radicalfeminist.com, I never saw a reputable news channel denying there would be differences between sexes. Actually, I see this meme of "Gender differences are taboo!" MUC…

[deleted]

I was implying a reputable one but I can see where the confusion could arise, so I edited my post to make it clear.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#107

Post by mikeash » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:28 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #98

golemotron wrote: post #36

I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. The current educational and political system is organized toward exclusively presenting the view that gender is a cultural construct and there are no differences between men and women other than plumbing. Men and women, on average, differ significantly on career choice, likes, dislikes, and motivation. And, it has…

A large part of the problem is the failure to distinguish between the aggregate and the individual. For the sake of argument let's say that the population of individuals who would make good engineers is 60% male and 40% female. From an aggregate level that's a huge difference. Once you gather enough of people that statistical inferences can be made, the difference becomes obvious. In a classroom, for instance. But at…

That really is the crux of the matter. Everyone should be given an equal chance with no prejudice, and then if population differences still emerge, that's OK.

Unfortunately there isn't much room for this middle ground. People who want to acknowledge sex difference want to use sex as a filter, e.g. "no women in combat roles." People who want to give everybody a chance also want to even things out, e.g. "Allow women in combat roles, and lower the standards for women so they have just as much of a chance as men have."

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#108

Post by lxop » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:28 PM UTC

RodericDay wrote: post #88

Whomever wants a critical look at this kind of "psychology result", I really recommend checking out Cordelia Fine (Oxford, Cambridge, UCL educated) and "Delusions of Gender". She is a fun listen/read and explains really well the flaws in the science/reporting/interpretation of "gender science", from the statistical to the neurological. http://blip.tv/slowtv/delusions-of-gender-p1-cordelia-fine-4... https://en.wikiped…

Cordelia Fine is known for ignoring all finding that contradict her worldview. You make it sound like her position represents the consensus... it does not.

http://www.uvm.edu/~tribeta/Articles/Sex%20stereotypes%20Hal...

"Cleverly written with engaging prose, Delusions of Gender and Brain Storm contain enough citations and end notes to signal that they are also serious academic books. Fine and Jordan-Young ferret out exaggerated, unreplicated claims and other silliness regarding research on sex differences. The books are strongest in exposing research conclusions that are closer to fiction than science. They are weakest in failing to also point out differences that are supported by a body of carefully conducted and well-replicated research."

Fine can play the audience well but she does not do well in academic reviews outside of feminist circles.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#109

Post by DamnYuppie » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:31 PM UTC

dataker wrote: post #92

Scientifically studying sex should be a top priority for our society. In both ends of the spectrum, but particularly in radical feminists, theories are influenced by ideologies and politics, hurting society at large. Recently, a feminist(president of a feminist university group) told me males were incomplete females(XY would be an incomplete version of XX) and, for that reason, they should have their instincts and be…

That sounds quite radical. Do you happen to have a link to this article? If so I would be interested in writing the board of trustees for that institution.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#110

Post by tfinniga » Tue, Jul 07, 2015, 1:31 PM UTC

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #89

tfinniga wrote: post #29

It's interesting to realize that if two groups have the same mean but different variability, the higher-variability group will have more outliers, on both the high end and the low end. The danger is a kind of genetic fatalism, assuming that what we should do is just to be determined by our genes and how our bodies work. For example, it's possible for a man to produce many children by impregnating lots of women concur…

> But even if we took the argument as fact, it doesn't mean that we have to accept every naive consequence. We don't need to say "Of course the vast majority of CEOs, world leaders, and very wealthy people are male, because the most intelligent people are almost all male". We can choose to have a better society than that. I don't think that intelligence is the most important factor for those positions, so let's talk…

Well, there is a reason why I chose those examples.

I'm not arguing for diversity at all costs, which seems like what you're arguing against.

I'd say in general having researchers and university teachers that are intelligent is good. Diversity is also good. There should be a balance - I think that diverse researchers and teachers can solve problems that a homogenous group of researchers would never solve.

For example, what problems do researchers tackle? They tend to choose problems that they see, and may never try to solve problems that affect other groups. Or they may choose solutions that only work for people like themselves.

For example, a lot of computer graphics algorithms like face recognition don't work well for black faces. Even more troublesome, many cameras (both digital and film) have a dynamic range that works well for white faces, but poorly for black faces.

Another example, the amount of research into male birth control vs. female birth control is very uneven.

Would it be worth it to have slightly less intelligent but much more diverse researchers and teachers? Would society as a whole be better off?

It has to be a balance, but I'd bet the answer is 'sometimes yes'.

All of this is somewhat beside my main point, which is that I think it's simplistic to say that society and morality should only be determined by genetics.