Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.” • Hacker News Board

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#101

Post by hackuser » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 11:50 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #39

sgnelson wrote: post #21

This makes me lose respect for Piketty. There's a very clear difference between a country that comes out of two world wars, with everything all but destroyed, including millions dead. I'm sorry, no matter how bad 2008 was, it was no World War. His inability to grasp this just boggles the mind. There's a very big difference between war caused debt and economic caused debt (note that I'm basically making these two "deb…

When Greece borrowed money, it was sustainable. Their GDP was growing, in large part because the European economy was growing before the crisis. When the European and world economy went down, it dragged Greece with them. The debt became unsustainable. Instead of the creditors losing out (much as an investor or normal creditor would when they invest in something that loses), the Europeans decided to bail out the initi…

> it doesn't matter whose fault it is. If Greece stops paying its creditors and stops taking loans, Germans will lose out. It's actually in Germany's best interest to forgive some of the debt, and have Greece pay the rest.

Absolutely. It's bizarre that in a country with bankruptcy laws (which Germany must have), they argue that it's 'immoral' for Greece to have some debt relief.

> When the European and world economy went down, it dragged Greece with them.

Remember who started the Great Recession (the U.S.). The Greeks probably had less to do with it than most nations.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#102

Post by Mikeb85 » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 11:51 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #90

Mikeb85 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole thing is a ponzi scheme. It absolutely is. If you think of money as units of labour instead of 'wealth', it makes more sense. Every year, more people are born, the workforce grows, more things are produced, more food is eaten, etc... The money supply has to reflect that there's always more of everything. This means inflation. And it's not a bad thing.

> The money supply has to reflect that there's always more of everything. This means inflation. And it's not a bad thing. Wait, what?! You don't understand inflation. If there was always "more of everything", the result would be deflation. More food -> food costs less. More cars -> cars cost less. More apartments -> apartments cost less. Economics 101.

You're forgetting that, as part of more 'everything', that also means more consumers, and more money printed...

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#103

Post by vegabook » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 11:52 PM UTC

Tehnix wrote: post #86

I feel sorry for the Greek people, but I personally favour throwing them out of the Eurozone if they default on the debt. It will be a very dangerous signal to send that you can borrow money, and not pay it back without any retribution. This is particularly important since more countries are going in the same direction as Greece (I think Spain and Puerto Rico are close, but I might be wrong). Besides that, it also hu…

Pikkety's case is essentially that debt is not sacrosanct, and that treating it as you are is counterproductive.

Sometimes the creditor must share some of the pain, in order to save (even himself) more pain down the line.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#104

Post by hackuser » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 11:52 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #100

hackuser wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That ingores the impact on the poor and pensioners of Greece. Just let them starve?

They wouldn't starve. Many countries have survived a default without people starving. Presumably, in the case of a Greek default, the government would be using the money to pay pensioners and give welfare instead of paying bond-holders...

Sorry, I misread what you were saying. I agree.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#105

Post by woodpanel » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 11:53 PM UTC

hackuser wrote: post #88

nostromo wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd draw a distinction between debts incurred by a democratically elected government and otherwise. I also think reparations are fundamentally different than loans. Comparing war reparations to loans is blurring the lines to make a political point.

> I'd draw a distinction between debts incurred by a democratically elected government and otherwise. I think that's a good point in principle, but remember that the Greece's poor suffer the most. Drive through a poor neighorhood in town and consider how much influence the residents have over national economic policy.

No one's questioning that Greece's poor will be hit the hardest. But neither does it help them to blur the meanings of reparations and debt for the sake of creating a scape-goat.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#106

Post by SoftwareMaven » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 11:53 PM UTC

sgnelson wrote: post #21

This makes me lose respect for Piketty. There's a very clear difference between a country that comes out of two world wars, with everything all but destroyed, including millions dead. I'm sorry, no matter how bad 2008 was, it was no World War. His inability to grasp this just boggles the mind. There's a very big difference between war caused debt and economic caused debt (note that I'm basically making these two "deb…

You'll excuse me if I express some skepticism about the "downfall of the US Industrial might". Only China produces more and only a handful of G20 countries' industrial base is growing faster.[1]

1. https://www.quandl.com/collections/economics/industrial-prod...

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#107

Post by vacri » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 11:53 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #93

jsprogrammer wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's a very clear difference between a country that comes out of two world wars, with everything all but destroyed, including millions dead. Which allows us to provide a further distinction: the country who had everything destroyed was directly responsible for that destruction. Yet, the debt that they racked up because they tried to take over eurasia while killing and torturing millions in the process, was forgiv…

>I think there should be a distinction between a country that kills and tortures millions and one that does not. So, why again should we forgive the debts of those responsible for killing and torturing millions, but not those of a country who has done nothing comparable? Because the Treaty of Versailles was tried the first time, to penalize Germany with onerous debts for starting WW1, and WW2 was the direct result. A…

But they are thinking "how can we prevent this again?" with respect to Greece - for example measures against corruption, unaffordable levels of welfare, and high tax avoidance. Without those measures, if they just hand over money with no strings attached, it will just be kicking the can down the road.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#108

Post by jsprogrammer » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 11:53 PM UTC

woodpanel wrote: post #74

jsprogrammer wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's a very clear difference between a country that comes out of two world wars, with everything all but destroyed, including millions dead. Which allows us to provide a further distinction: the country who had everything destroyed was directly responsible for that destruction. Yet, the debt that they racked up because they tried to take over eurasia while killing and torturing millions in the process, was forgiv…

Following your lead: Then let's start by assigning a value to each person killed in WWII and the moral righteousness (or lack thereof) leading to the person's death. Yes quite the humane and reasonable trait in a time of total destruction. Very helpful. Your post actually prove's the other author's point: Your clear opinion of responsibility is shown and thus it would be clear to me, how you as a winner's negotiator…

I'm not sure what you're arguing. Are we going to assign values to each fault of Greece as well and then compare them to your WWII calculation?

>Your post actually prove's the other author's point: Your clear opinion of responsibility is shown and thus it would be clear to me, how you as a winner's negotiator in that time after WWII would have "accounted" that debt.

My clear "opinion of responsibility"? You mean, my assertion that Germany was responsible for the destruction mentioned by sgnelson and the killing and torturing of millions that I brought up? Do you reject that assertion?

Modern debt is an inherently ridiculous proposition. It can only ever expand or collapse. The longer the world tries to solve its problems using it, the more comical it becomes.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#109

Post by hackuser » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 11:55 PM UTC

njs12345 wrote: post #79

sgnelson wrote: post #21

This makes me lose respect for Piketty. There's a very clear difference between a country that comes out of two world wars, with everything all but destroyed, including millions dead. I'm sorry, no matter how bad 2008 was, it was no World War. His inability to grasp this just boggles the mind. There's a very big difference between war caused debt and economic caused debt (note that I'm basically making these two "deb…

The Greek economy has shrunk by a quarter over the course of the crisis. Not quite a smoking crater, but not exactly a trifle either, and not incomparable to the impact of a war, I'd say..

> The Greek economy has shrunk by a quarter over the course of the crisis. Not quite a smoking crater

I disagree; that's a smoking crater. I'd bet the U.S. economy hasn't experienced that since 1900, or maybe only in the Great Depression.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#110

Post by tomp » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 11:58 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #89

tomp wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underlying assumption in the German "NO" to Greek pleas of debt relief is the "moral hazard" of writing off a country's debt just because they cried really hard. Why don't we talk about the moral hazard of writing off a country's debt after they kill 60 million people?

Well, as part of their debt relief, Germany got a new government. Is that what Greece wants?

Greece has a new government. One that has no connection with either the thieves that caused the problem in the first place nor the incompetent idiots that didn't solve it in the last 5 years.