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Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

nytimes.com

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Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#101

Post by nailer »

netvarun wrote: post #97
jpatokal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opinion above was formed by living in Singapore for ~8 years and continuing to take an active interest in its affairs for the next 5. You're welcome to disagree, but please tell me why then instead of just downvoting...

I downvoted you because you cherrypicked a quote from LKY without any context and of all people, you had to quote Chee Soon Juan - that quite shows that you don't have ground reality or an understanding of Singaporean politics. [Source: I'm Singaporean]

You haven't provided any supporting arguments. Perhaps you can tell us what the missing context is, or why using that quote means he has no understanding?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#102

Post by nailer »

netvarun wrote: post #96
skinnylatte wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Singaporean. I've worked in opposition politics. I'm going to be voting this year. Here are a few thoughts: - your understanding of the Lees in Singapore have no historical context. You cannot view his leadership in a vacuum. You cannot look at Singapore politics and say it needs a dash of 'Western liberalism & democracy' and proclaim Chee Soon Juan one of its administrators. LKY, and the Singapore of his time,…

This is a really well-written comment. Thank you very much. I'm Singaporean (though currently based in San Francisco) and identify myself as a supporter of the PAP. I am currently traveling, and unfortunately got hold of LKY's passing a little late (though I had been following his health the past few days) and still feeling a little shell-shocked. I am personally very disappointed at all the comments on HN - most of…

How does reciting a pledge and serving in an army prove to someone their leader's genius?

Something I frequently noticed working for a company with a Singaporean headquarters was confusion between authority and logic.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#103

Post by nailer »

skinnylatte wrote: post #91
CyberDildonics wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to look deeper into that. Economically Singapore has been well run, every other way is up for debate.

Every other way is up for debate? We have a good education system, and I would not trade our healthcare system for what you're likely used to; as a gay Singaporean, I have no curtailing of my social freedoms. I cannot marry or adopt legally yet, but that's the conversation that we're soon going to have (and which the "West" has only just recently gotten). The civil service is good. More can be done for the low income…

Because if you needed to protest, and did so, you'd be arrested?

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#104

Post by nailer »

skinnylatte wrote: post #94
jpatokal wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious? Here's an actual case of corruption at a government-linked org in Singapore: in particular, look how three people making claims that later turned out to entirely factual were sued into apologizing, and the bubble only burst when the NKF made the mistake of suing somebody even better-connected to the establishment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Kidney_Foundation_Sin...

So we are too corrupt or are we too authoritarian? After all we just jailed a man over pineapple tart corruption. NKF is not the government. That's kind of like saying that TSA molests people, and that the federal government is responsible for it.

It's possible to be both. Do not tolerate protest, and also promote family members to run state organisations.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#105

Post by nailer »

contingencies wrote: post #60
jpatokal wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, how would you rank Singapore against its neighbors Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia?

Far more totalitarian.

Singapore is authoritarian and corrupt but look at what happened to Anwar Ibrahim in Malaysia.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#106

Post by jpatokal »

skinnylatte wrote: post #88
jpatokal wrote: post #29

Singapore is in for some seriously interesting times. Lee Kuan Yew did a masterful job of getting Singapore up to speed after independence, but like so many leaders over-identified with their nation, he overstayed his welcome. The Lee family's tentacles are firmly entrenched in the politics and businesses of Singapore, and while I hope they will have the common sense to tolerate the inevitable rise of the opposition…

Oh good god. As a Singaporean (who has worked in the opposition politics no less) I am sick and tired of Chee Soon Juan the megalomaniac who can't get basic economics right, being treated as our saviour. He is not.

I'm not quoting CHJ for his economics -- and I find it depressingly fascinating how well the Singaporean establishment has succeeded in demonizing the poor guy. (Have you read any of his books?)

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#107

Post by jpatokal »

skinnylatte wrote: post #90
jpatokal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opinion above was formed by living in Singapore for ~8 years and continuing to take an active interest in its affairs for the next 5. You're welcome to disagree, but please tell me why then instead of just downvoting...

I'm a Singaporean. I've worked in opposition politics. I'm going to be voting this year. Here are a few thoughts: - your understanding of the Lees in Singapore have no historical context. You cannot view his leadership in a vacuum. You cannot look at Singapore politics and say it needs a dash of 'Western liberalism & democracy' and proclaim Chee Soon Juan one of its administrators. LKY, and the Singapore of his time,…

Oh, I actually agree with most (but not all) of what you say. The Workers Party is the only viable opposition at the moment, but this is largely because they are very careful to "play by the rules" and not antagonize the Government too much.

What worries me, though, is that they are allowed to exist at the Government's forbearance. If they start to pose a real threat to the PAP's dominance, everything I've seen leads me to believe that the PAP will play dirty and strike them down as hard as is necessary. As said, I hope I'm wrong, but...

I'm also not sure I share your belief in Singapore voters being "no longer afraid". I've had Singaporeans tell me, entirely seriously, that they can't vote for the opposition because their votes are recorded and then they won't get government jobs.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#108

Post by jpatokal »

skinnylatte wrote: post #99
contingencies wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore: Yes, 5-10 times between 1989 and 2014. It's gotten a hell of a lot more generic and 1984-like in that time. The character once present been trampled in favor of dystopian public housing for immigrant laborers and a cleanliness. Frankly, last time I was there it gave me the creeps so much I was haunted by the smiley-faced actors in the propaganda-piece on permanent repeat in the airline departure lounge. Th…

I joined because I'm frankly a little amused by some of these comments. More totalitarian: how do you quantify that? I was born and brought up in Singapore and do business in all those countries (tech startup). That sentiment is alien (and not just because I'm Singaporean), it's because Malaysia for example is more totalitarian and is also on the way to becoming a failed state economically and socially. You seem to b…

Dictionary definition: "Totalitarianism is a political system in which the state holds total authority over the society and seeks to control all aspects of public and private life wherever possible." Singapore is pretty much the poster boy for this.

Malaysia certainly has aspirations to be as totalitarian as Singapore; however, the government is too incompetent and consumed with in-fighting to actually accomplish it.

Thailand is just a garden-variety military dictatorship, the junta hold the levers of power but doesn't really appear to know what to do with them.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#109

Post by ptaipale »

sjwright wrote: post #74
jessaustin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the attempt is to understand the roots of homicide, rather than just bash one nation or another, it's more instructive to look at homicides [0], rather than homicides of a particular flavor. A careful look at that list will make it clear that elevated homicide rates are a legacy of colonization, at least as much as legal policy. Those in the Americas or Africa can't really be blamed that they were colonized by Eur…

If your argument is that America's problems are caused by Europe, that's pretty embarrassing.

Well, I didn't read the argument like that. More like that the homicide rates are a legacy of the process of colonization; in a country that was first colonies and then a nation expanding across the North American continent, sometimes meeting hostile original inhabitants who were mercilessly and violently overrun, there was violence, and that violence necessitated self-defence, which in turn means the people traditionally rely on guns they use themselves, not the authorities and legal process - because the authorities weren't there.

Plus that in Europe, the powers-that-be have largely wanted to avoid revolutions, which means that the public's access to firearms as well as right to self-defence is restricted and police, gendarmerie and similar organisations have true monopoly on (lawful) violence. America, in turn, is a child of revolution and is revering the overthrowing of powers-that-be who were perceived as tyrants.

That's just my understanding of the history how the United States has come to this situation, not a value statement that it's how things should be.

(Just for comparison, compare to other countries colonized at the same time or earlier, like Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, Honduras, Colombia, Nicaragua - they all have much higher homicide rates than the U.S.)

Re: Lee Kuan Yew, Founding Father and First Premier of Singapore, Dies at 91

#110

Post by ptaipale »

yen223 wrote: post #64
_delirium wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be difficult, because their strong economy is directly tied to the fairly non-democratic society. Its main competitive advantage are the large quantities of cheap labor it is surrounded by, which it manages very carefully with a top-down system of residence classes. A Singapore with more equal rights would be a very different one economically.

One could argue that Singapore's competitive advantage is that they can attract top talent from neighbouring countries by offering a better quality of life - which, anecdotally, is the case among my friends - in which case a Singapore with more equal rights might actually be stronger economically.

Some of that quality of life is dependent on having cheap labour from neighbouring countries (and repressing any protests). Who washes the laundry quickly and efficiently at a low price, and serves at that nice restaurant?

For tech jobs talent, the immigrant status is different of course.

I'm not telling Singaporeans what to do, this is just for the note.

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