CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country • Hacker News Board

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#101

Post by pmoriarty » Sun, Dec 14, 2014, 5:01 PM UTC

a3n wrote: post #89

e12e wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg because we were trying the people who gave the orders too. The only reason the Nuremberg trails happened at all, was that Germany lost. No-one was indited over fire-bombing Dresden, or nuking Hiroshima. People didn't go to prison over atrocities committed in Vietnam. While there should be prosecution over this, it seems unlikely to happen in the current US system. I'…

> People didn't go to prison over atrocities committed in Vietnam. Well, one guy was grounded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley "William Laws Calley, Jr. (born June 8, 1943) is a former United States Army officer found guilty of murdering 22 unarmed South Vietnamese civilians in the My Lai Massacre on March 16, 1968, during the Vietnam War. After several reductions, Calley’s original sentence of life in p…

Low-level grunt takes a bullet for the team, during one of the most revolutionary periods in American history. There were some low-level prosecutions (and even convictions) of American even during the Iraq war. But the higher-ups were never held accountable.

How could they have known what the people they command do? They could never possibly even dream of doing anything wrong, and if they did, they always did it in the best interests of those they lead and governed. And if it was illegal, well, they'll make it legal; and if convicted, the conviction will be overturned on appeal, or you'll get pardoned.. unless you piss off the wrong man in power. Then you could get shot in the face, and made to apologize for being in the way of the gun.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#102

Post by sseveran » Sun, Dec 14, 2014, 5:05 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #88

icantthinkofone wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are people who are charged with wanting to kill people and otherwise destroy the USA. There is no shame in locking people up who want to do that, though you can disagree with the charges all you want.

Wake-up. Where are his lawyers? where is the invisible jury? If a real judge finds that some of they are guilty they should just be put in a real Jail. Just like any other american citizen. Can't see any real problem with this. Guantanamo IS still helping to destroy the USA, in fact, and should have been destroyed many years ago.

Why would a non-nation state actor need a lawyer? I could see returning the Taliban fighters to Afganistan since they were representing some sort of government. For people who have been picked up as part of Al Qaeda and its affiliate networks I don't really have a problem with holding them indefinitely.

I find the use of drones to kill Americans, and the casual acceptance of collateral damage to be far, far worse. Those Americans may have done terrible things but were still Americans with Constitutional rights, unlike someone we picked up in Yemen or Somalia.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#103

Post by jberryman » Sun, Dec 14, 2014, 5:06 PM UTC

WorldWideWayne wrote: post #67

VieElm wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> until real revolution in US, or some sort of vigilantism movement America doesn't need a revolution, it just needs more informed and motivated voters who vote in their self-interest. Maybe that counts as a revolution, but the way you paired it with "vigiliantism movement" suggested some kind of violence or government overthrow which would be pretty awful to be honest and I hope never happens in my life time or the…

Are people supposed to look on TV or other mass media outlets for proper information and motivation? If so, I think we need a revolution because TV, Radio and now the Internet are controlled assets of the current system.

You're commenting in a thread about an article on cnn.com

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#104

Post by orbifold » Sun, Dec 14, 2014, 5:12 PM UTC

josephlord wrote: post #41

alexandros wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prestige hit and vulnerability to "letting down the troops" criticisms will ensure this doesn't happen.

Do you really think that? Even when something really bad happens? 9-11 type incident or worse. Only following orders is no justification for war crimes including torture. The world needs to see that America believes that and that it doesn't just apply to Nazi's. America is an example to the world, please be a good one.

America hasn't been an example in their actual behavior to the world basically ever, that is just what propaganda and indoctrination wants you to believe. Not that most other nations did behave particularly well during their history either. The actual conclusion that has been more widespread during history than it is today, is that a world revolution by the oppressed and exploited would be necessary to disrupt the current power structure and bring about meaningful global political change.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#105

Post by pmoriarty » Sun, Dec 14, 2014, 5:15 PM UTC

claudius wrote: post #60

probably_wrong wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a counterpoint, you might want to look into Argentina's "Law of due obedience"[1]. Of course, Argentinean law doesn't affect US law, but the fact that this law was eventually repealed sets an international precedent that "I was just following orders" is not a valid defense from prosecution. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_de_Obediencia_Debida

"I was just following orders" has already been established as an insufficient defense in the 1946 Nuremberg trials and essentially all later trials against WW 2 war criminals. It is by now pretty well established that crimes against humanity in general and torture in particular are not justifiable.

This (along with striving to get good PR) is one of the main reasons the US government is so keen to redefine the word "torture" to mean something that they don't do. The same goes for the words "terrorism" and "terror".

  "Shock and awe" == good
  "Terror" == bad

  "Torture" == illegal
  "Stress position" == legal

  decapitation with a knife == horrific and evil
  decapitation by shrapnel == worthy of a medal

  assassination by the American govt == good
  assassination by other governments == bad

  killing by poison gas on the battlefield == bad
  killing by poison injections in a prison == good

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#106

Post by pmoriarty » Sun, Dec 14, 2014, 5:26 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #76

rhino369 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real reason is that they were carrying out the official policy of the US government. Just calling it CIA torture is minimizing how far up this went. Bush ordered it. DOD knew. DOJ not only knew, it crafted the governments tortured definition of torture. Congress knew. This isn't some off the books CIA wet team opp. It was planned and signed off at the highest levels. John Yoo, who wrote the torture memos, is a pr…

Do you have proof Bush ordered it? I love theories, but I also love facts. I'm not sure I see equal outrage in te denial of due process to Americans killed by Obama's drone strikes. Let's be consistent in our outrage. Shouldn't Obama be brought up on murder charges since he ordered the execution of Americans, bypassing the Constitution, the courts and the law?

Absolutely. These guys are basically on one and the same party, constantly covering each other's asses and continuing each other's policies (except when it's politically expedient not to do so, or when there's a power struggle).

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#107

Post by orbifold » Sun, Dec 14, 2014, 5:26 PM UTC

jberryman wrote: post #103

WorldWideWayne wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are people supposed to look on TV or other mass media outlets for proper information and motivation? If so, I think we need a revolution because TV, Radio and now the Internet are controlled assets of the current system.

You're commenting in a thread about an article on cnn.com

The trick is not to suppress a story, like you would with less sophisticated propaganda, but to frame it in a particular way. You can spin negative stories in a way that they either become tedious to the public quickly or by focussing on more or less irrelevant details and statements of officials about the story. There are probably a multitude of other tricks and techniques that are well known in the public relations industry and by now huge offices with many smart people whose sole job it is to direct a story in a particular way.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#108

Post by lotsofmangos » Sun, Dec 14, 2014, 5:28 PM UTC

sseveran wrote: post #102

pvaldes wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wake-up. Where are his lawyers? where is the invisible jury? If a real judge finds that some of they are guilty they should just be put in a real Jail. Just like any other american citizen. Can't see any real problem with this. Guantanamo IS still helping to destroy the USA, in fact, and should have been destroyed many years ago.

Why would a non-nation state actor need a lawyer? I could see returning the Taliban fighters to Afganistan since they were representing some sort of government. For people who have been picked up as part of Al Qaeda and its affiliate networks I don't really have a problem with holding them indefinitely. I find the use of drones to kill Americans, and the casual acceptance of collateral damage to be far, far worse. Th…

You know, that position on rights is fascism.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#109

Post by pmoriarty » Sun, Dec 14, 2014, 5:29 PM UTC

trhway wrote: post #38

wavefunction wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama probably would not be part of the group but Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein would. Jay Rockefeller as well. These three very senior leaders in the Democratic party have sat on the Foreign Intelligence Committee during this period of torture and while supposedly not completely in-the-loop approved of what they did know of.

>Obama probably would not be part of the group Obama is the president of the country blatantly, in the open, violating Geneva Conventions - Gitmo, drone strikes. Not that anybody, who matters, cares though.

But didn't you hear? He "wants" to close Gitmo.

He only has the best of intentions, but darn it, those obstructionist Republicans always stand in the way.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#110

Post by omonra » Sun, Dec 14, 2014, 5:36 PM UTC

icantthinkofone wrote: post #84

pvaldes wrote: post #82

And meanwhile in tortureland... "no country wants the guantanamo people incarcered in Guantanamo, so we need to keep him incarcerted because we are really very afraid of them" What?. No country wants the leftovers? They are not animals, are humans without rights. USA, YOU create this shame, it is your duty to solve it. So you want options? ok, here goes one option... what if you'll release him and give them the USA c…

These are people who are charged with wanting to kill people and otherwise destroy the USA. There is no shame in locking people up who want to do that, though you can disagree with the charges all you want.

This is an echo chamber for people who all agree with each other. I wouldn't waste your time taking the opposite view.