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Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

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Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#101

Post by kasey_junk »

jimmaswell wrote: post #89
Paul_S wrote: post #11

Does a "simple algebra test" correlate with IQ? Does "programming aptitude" (whatever the hell that is meant to be) correlate with IQ? The headline would then follow. I know this is a socially unacceptable opinion but I think those correlations exist.

>"programming aptitude" (whatever the hell that is meant to be) What's not clear about the term?

We as an industry have no objective measure for what is and is not a good program. Therefore, we have no objective measure for who is good at programming.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#102

Post by kasey_junk »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #93
mentos wrote: post #48

I am not great at higher level Math (calculus) and I'm good with algebra but I do not think I'd consider those good predictors. I feel like what allows me to program is strong spatial reasoning. Doing a quick google search I found this: http://www.quora.com/Whats-the-nature-of-the-relationship-if... Probably just anecdotal but curious to know what others feel about spatial reasoning? I think specially with object ori…

I would also agree that spatial reasoning is key to strong programming ability. Most data structures are best understood through spatial reasoning, for example. But I would also say that spatial reasoning is key to mathematical ability. I'm actually surprised that you would consider yourself strong with spatial reasoning but had trouble with calculus. Perhaps you just had a bad teacher or lacked proper motivation?

I'm terrible at spatial reasoning but have no problem with formal logic. I'd also like to think I have strong programming ability (of course we don't know how to measure that).

Spatial reasoning is a key mathematical ability for certain classes of problems (a big chunk of calculus as you mention) but helps not at all with another big class of mathematics (set theory for instance).

Finally, to you data structures are best understood via spatial reasoning, but there is nothing actually spatial about data structures so that is probably most likely just your own preference for modeling them.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#103

Post by kasey_junk »

palakchokshi wrote: post #19
mgirdley wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Codeup CEO here: it's the instructors evaluating the students based on their interactions with then and answering the question: how capable is this person of building quality web applications?

That is so subjective that it should be ignored. I've interviewed people who interviewed very well but in practice they failed at basic computer programming concepts and implementations.

We simply do not have an objective measure for program quality and thus do not have an objective measure for programming aptitude.

In the face of this problem we can either give up and not try to measure anything, or we can use an obviously subjective measure and understand where the weaknesses are.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#104

Post by murbard2 »

mzl wrote: post #80
murbard2 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There main test has 60 datapoints... how many tries do you think they made exactly before deciding they didn't correlate as well? Yes, IQ tests are expensive, but if you buy one test, the marginal cost of giving to an extra student is basically 0. I suspect it wasn't tested at all.

A real IQ test takes at least 2 hours of 1-on-1 time with a psycholigist to administer, so in the event that someone actually wants to do real iq testing the marginal cost is quite high.

That's what psychometricians want you too believe. There is no scientific reason it needs to be administered by a human or be so long.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#105

Post by j_baker »

This article is built on a fundamentally invalid premise:

> 30-60% of CS college majors have failed their Introduction to Computer Science course because they simply could not learn to program.

This "You either have it or you don't" mindset is strikingly elitist. I simply don't buy the idea that there are people out there who absolutely cannot learn to program. I mean, put someone on a desert island and tell them they can't leave until they can write a program that uses a linked list, and I'm pretty sure most people would be able to get off the island eventually.

Of course, that doesn't mean that some people can learn to code more easily than others. But I'd be willing to posit that the vast majority of people could learn to code given enough time and the proper instruction.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#106

Post by xeromal »

kasey_junk wrote: post #99
mathattack wrote: post #28

For an article about math, they seem surprisingly weak at differentiating between causation and correlation. It’s fairly common for incoming Computer Science majors to ask the question, “Why do I have to learn all this math if I just want to learn to program?” The correlation above suggests a possible answer: The ability to understand basic mathematics is likely correlated with the ability to “think algorithmically,”…

Precisely what I thought as soon as I read the study, simply because I was terrible at math generally (and algebra specifically) before I studied CS. Afterwords, it turns out I'm fine at math generally (and have a bit of ability for algebra). The problem I had was not the content matter but the teaching paradigm. A much more interesting experiment would be to add the algebra test back into the end of the program and…

I was in the exact same boat. I was "shit" at math, but my love for tech pushed me to CS. I barely passed the req maths such as the calcs and descreet math, but I did exceedingly well at the cs classes. I even did okay in the algo classes just because I was driven. The longer I'm in the industry though, the easier math becomes. I've been teaching myself algebra and calc on the side and things come a lot easier. Maybe it's just my wrestle with it attitude I've picked up over time or maybe my brain is rewired. Who knows.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#107

Post by duaneb »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #95
Morgawr wrote: post #61

If there is one thing that has always bothered me, is people evaluating student's prowess in "Computer Science" (which is not programming, shame on you) by having them learn your normal run-of-the-mill programming language/paradigm like Javascript, Python, PHP and whatnot and then claim they are not apt to program because they cannot solve problems or handle variables, mutability, etc etc. There are A LOT of differen…

Recursion is as hard as mutable state to grasp if not harder. We might find a few people who can do one thing sligtly better than the other one, but not complete blanks.

I disagree. Recursion is simply inductive reasoning, which people are able to grasp at a young age.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#108

Post by analog31 »

ludoo wrote: post #63
xivzgrev wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is algebra. Take second problem for instance. X + (x + 1) + (x+ 2) = 69. Solve for x.

Or just recognize that three consecutive numbers mean you divide by three and get the median of the three numbers. So 69/3-1, 69/3, 69/3+1, giving 22, 23, 24. No algebra involved, you just need to interpret the problem and build a tiny model in your head. Exactly like (some kinds of) programming.

Amusingly, I taught a college math class many years ago. A question on one exam was:

x^3 = 27

One student solved it in the following way:

1^3 = 1

2^3 = 8

3^3 = 27

ans = 3

There was a meeting for the teachers to discuss grading standards, and I brought up my student's answer. I got a number of responses:

"That's not algebra." "The student obviously doesn't understand the problem."

And so forth. Being somewhat of a punk, I asked if any of them had, in their years of teaching, actually taught their students to recognize when an answer is "algebra" or how a right answer of 3 differs from a wrong answer of 3. It wasn't a pleasant discussion. This was a university with a prestigious math department, and I was just some guy off the street. I chatted with my students the next day. None of them had ever been told what it means to "show your work," or any of the other important trappings of school math. They either did it or they didn't.

Thinking about it more, I would have sidestepped the issue completely, by changing the problem to:

x^3 = 26

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#109

Post by the_af »

bitplanets wrote: post #75

Why do you care about it in the first place? Also what is your definition of good programmer? Just make a function? Make a class? Make a big app? IMO you don't need to learn too much math before programming to be a good programmer. Basic operations are good enough, if you need more you learn as you go, you'll never know what you need. Lazy learning, like lazy variable loading. The test you are making are more like pr…

I disagree with many of your points.

First, the algorithmic part of programming is a lot like doing algebra. So much so that algebra is an important part of any serious CS syllabus. Clearly "writing a function or a class" is not the skill they are testing here, but problem-solving.

Knowing how to solve simple algebraic problems engages your "problem solving" skills in a similar way as solving something by writing a program. Note that algebra is not "basic math (+,-,/,*)" like you said. Algebra, like programming, requires the ability to understand and write abstractions, and to figure out how to approach a problem.

> Also what better indicator you want than programming itself?

They clearly want to establish a correlation between something else and programming. This is interesting in itself.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#110

Post by marcosdumay »

sysk wrote: post #98
ObviousScience wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> very poor platform to base handing out algebra tests in interviews without establishing causality Why? It probably shouldn't be your only criterion, but if it has a high correlation, why wouldn't that be sufficient for handing out algebra tests? A high correlation corresponds to predictive power, even if it's not a causal relationship.

I think the point being made is that there are probably predictors which have many orders of magnitude more predictive power (e.g. work experience, education, interview questions, programming exercise, available source code, etc.). The male gender is probably correlated to programming ability as well due to the fact that there are more male programmers but it's not a very useful predictor.

Predictors for a school to apply? I wouldn't bet on it. None of your suggestions seem fit.

Also, for a job it's probably a better predictor than a resume.

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