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How to reward skilled coders with something other than people management

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Re: How to reward skilled coders with something other than people management

#101

Post by enraged_camel »

fit2rule wrote: post #92
dmfdmf wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to disparage the whole management class but I think part of it is that manager types don't really get the motivation to solve problems. They think that if someone doesn't have a manager telling them what to do then they won't do anything, but that is just psychological projection. Fred was one of the happiest (and busiest) guys at this company and many strived to achieve his status. Regarding respect; Af…

This is the problem: manager types There is no such thing, it is an absurd invention. There is management - when that occurs, and only after, do you have a manager.

>>This is the problem: manager types >>There is no such thing, it is an absurd invention.

Of course there is. Management as a career track attracts certain types of people, just like engineering. Every manager is different but they share a lot of common traits. Hence, "manager types."

Re: How to reward skilled coders with something other than people management

#102

Post by solistice »

chitresh wrote: post #85
blumkvist wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HR.

Nope. Those would be teachers and trainers.

So to continue the IT parallel, that'd be setup (hiring and training) and maintenance/debugging (hr complaints and problem resolving) imo. My personal hunch would be that viewing the whole thing in a systems context, the EOs would be engineering. After all, they decide how the company is run at a top level, and either assemble a functioning "people stack" or set guidelines for doing so. In that vein, components/prospective employees are churned out by the education system as a broader whole, and the raw material for that...alright, i think that's taking the metaphor far enough.

Re: How to reward skilled coders with something other than people management

#103

Post by enraged_camel »

baddox wrote: post #26
fein wrote: post #3

For me its pretty simple: Pay me what I'm worth. None of this managerial shite, just dollars. I will be happy.

You're worth any amount of money that both you and your employer agree on.

That's not your worth. It's your worth to that particular employer. It is defined by what value you can deliver and how much the other side needs that value.

It sounds pedantic but I think it's a very important distinction.

Re: How to reward skilled coders with something other than people management

#104

Post by marcosdumay »

jules wrote: post #91
zobzu wrote: post #14

One thing that always fails with that is that management always get more money. Wanna be a tech leader paid 150k? (fancy title, +- same salary as before) Or wanna be a director paid 250k? (fancier title, way bigger salary) Kinda difficult not to choose the "free tesla every year" isn't it? Plus.. the directory job is generally going to mean a more relaxed job (albeit less interesting for an engineer maybe, but that's…

Yes, the only way around this is to become an independent consultant or start your own company.

And then, you become a manager.

Re: How to reward skilled coders with something other than people management

#105

Post by frandroid »

hell-ban-me wrote: post #96
erikb wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely dig the money argument. A bad junior manager will probably make much more money than a jedi developer. Therefore many people choose to be a bad manager instead of a happy, good, developer.

Wow, where do you guys come from? At my current gig, as a contract engineer I make two times more than the department director, who is 4 levels up in the hyerarhy.

Wait, are you really comparing contract to full-time?

Re: How to reward skilled coders with something other than people management

#106

Post by marcosdumay »

parfe wrote: post #39
clueless123 wrote: post #13

If a sales guy sells 10x, he gets 10x commision.. If a coder produces 10x, pay him 10x. What is so hard to understand about that ?

People hand the company money when sales do their job. No one hands the company money because you wrote an extra 1,000 lines of code this week down in your cube on B2. Just like the janitor who doesn't get paid 10x as much if he spends some extra time scrubbing the bathrooms.

No?

Then why does your company employ you? Are they doing charity?

Re: How to reward skilled coders with something other than people management

#107

Post by fit2rule »

enraged_camel wrote: post #101
fit2rule wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem: manager types There is no such thing, it is an absurd invention. There is management - when that occurs, and only after, do you have a manager.

>>This is the problem: manager types >>There is no such thing, it is an absurd invention. Of course there is. Management as a career track attracts certain types of people, just like engineering. Every manager is different but they share a lot of common traits. Hence, "manager types."

These 'types' exist only to allow academia administrivia to be more open for profit. There is not such a thing as a 'manager type of personality', or 'a tech type' - this is an invention, utterly arbitrary, and a product of a corrupt education system that allows such a mythos to occur in order to cater to industrialization of human economy.

Re: How to reward skilled coders with something other than people management

#108

Post by walshemj »

blumkvist wrote: post #80
analog31 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My observation is that the MBA degree is primarily valued by other MBA's.

That really depends on where you got your MBA.

only up to a point grad students at top end universities like Harvard and Cranfield will look down on those who could only get into the MBA

Re: How to reward skilled coders with something other than people management

#109

Post by Bahamut »

peteretep wrote: post #34
zobzu wrote: post #14

One thing that always fails with that is that management always get more money. Wanna be a tech leader paid 150k? (fancy title, +- same salary as before) Or wanna be a director paid 250k? (fancier title, way bigger salary) Kinda difficult not to choose the "free tesla every year" isn't it? Plus.. the directory job is generally going to mean a more relaxed job (albeit less interesting for an engineer maybe, but that's…

> Plus.. the director job is generally going to mean a > more relaxed job If you believe responsibility over people, budgets, liabilities and policy is less stressful than responsibility over systems, you're high. As a programmer, let me tell you: people who have only ever done programming for a career have no clue how relatively easy they have it.

To add some more details - being a good manager can be a delicate dance. When you are a manager, you start to become responsible for high level tasks that have huge impact to a company. However, if you micromanage too much, you create an awful culture of fear and hamper developer productivity.

So how do you inspire developers to execute in a timeframe dictated by others? You have to be a leader who inspires the engineers to complete the task, even if it requires putting in extra hours. This means setting the example, looking out for your engineers' welfare, being able to provide answers and not problems, and being someone who can be easily approached.

The moment something goes wrong, the burden is on the manager to make the right decision - the wrong decision can have negative ramifications over months, if not years. The moment you micromanage, something is broken in your process, or with the people involved.

I recently had to start wearing a technical lead & director hat - the intense pressure of the startup world bore down on my whole team in order to get a working product in order from scratch in about 1 1/2 months of coding. The resources became scarce since the technical lead got sick & had a family death, while two other senior engineers had babies in the time period. It then was left to two junior developers and me to do the lion's share of work until the other engineers could get back to work. I let the junior engineers work mostly normal hours (until close to our deadline) - I ended up taking the burden largely on myself, with mostly 75 hour weeks (even after the other engineers were back as well). During regular hours, I did some work, but was more focused on mentorship and any tasks that were blockers. The early and late hours were when I busted out complex code.

At the engineering level, good management shows as incredibly important, especially for startups. Pressure deadlines on engineers are taxing for all - good management by top level engineers is vital for preventing burnout in everyone else, which can make it easy for people to decide to leave a company, especially when compounded by salary that does not match what the free market has to offer.

Re: How to reward skilled coders with something other than people management

#110

Post by frostmatthew »

peteretep wrote: post #34
zobzu wrote: post #14

One thing that always fails with that is that management always get more money. Wanna be a tech leader paid 150k? (fancy title, +- same salary as before) Or wanna be a director paid 250k? (fancier title, way bigger salary) Kinda difficult not to choose the "free tesla every year" isn't it? Plus.. the directory job is generally going to mean a more relaxed job (albeit less interesting for an engineer maybe, but that's…

> Plus.. the director job is generally going to mean a > more relaxed job If you believe responsibility over people, budgets, liabilities and policy is less stressful than responsibility over systems, you're high. As a programmer, let me tell you: people who have only ever done programming for a career have no clue how relatively easy they have it.

> As a programmer, let me tell you: people who have only ever done programming for a career have no clue how relatively easy they have it.

As someone who was a banquet manager before switching careers I can assure you that you are 100% absolutely correct. My most stressful days (of which there are very very few) as a developer don't come close to my least stressful in my previous career.

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