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Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

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Re: Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

#101

Post by tempestn »

saidajigumi wrote: post #78
gtremper wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little off-topic, but I don't see why OKCupid's actions here are unethical. Their matching algorithm isn't perfect, so they shouldn't treat it as an oracle of truth. How else would they discover false negatives in their algorithm? Especially since, in this case, a false negative is worse than a false positive (not meeting someone you'll like vs having one unsuccessful date).

> How else would they discover false negatives in their algorithm? This is exactly why research that deals with humans at Universities invariably must pass a human subjects review process. "How else would we discover X?" is certainly not reason to subject anyone to an unethical experiment. Subjecting people to what you likely believe to be a bad date should very definitely raise red flags, even if the details in prac…

Do you think that giving someone an artificially inflated OKCupid match really rises to the standard of an unethical experiment though? OKCupid doesn't tell you who to go on a date with; they just suggest potentially good matches. (Right? I'm married and don't tend to troll dating sites, but that's my understanding.) You're free to read their profile, exchange messages, etc., before arranging a date. If it is indeed a bad match, then most likely you would realize your incompatibility early in the process.

Re: Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

#102

Post by knowtheory »

smokinjoe wrote: post #98
knowtheory wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is that it's not anonymized and it's being inspected for and used for purposes that have little to do with the ostensible customer-service agreement. People aren't used to transit companies interrogating them about the purposes of their journeys, they just want the transit company to get them from point A to point B (imagine if they did this when you got in the car: "Where are you going? Why?") And ob…

> But lets not kid ourselves. This isn't anonymized data. Uber's publishing in a format that is unspecific, but they have all of the detailed data and can poke through it and infer things at their leisure, and they have no compunction around how they're doing it or why. That's a fairly large accusation to make. This blog post was originally published in 2012 - two years ago. Since then has anything come out that woul…

Sure, i don't normally like linking to TC but this has a pretty good roundup of links: http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/20/following-pressure-from-u-s...

Re: Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

#103

Post by eli »

cbd1984 wrote: post #80
eli wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think probably the language and tone of the post more than either the data or the conclusions.

Interesting. In the more socially-aware fora I'm familiar with, what's called "tone policing" or "tone trolling" is seen as a major faux pas, an aggressive act designed to shut people out of the conversation.

Don't mean to offend anyone, but I think tone is usually the cause for something sounding "cringey"

Re: Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

#104

Post by 001sky »

meowface wrote: post #93
gtremper wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little off-topic, but I don't see why OKCupid's actions here are unethical. Their matching algorithm isn't perfect, so they shouldn't treat it as an oracle of truth. How else would they discover false negatives in their algorithm? Especially since, in this case, a false negative is worse than a false positive (not meeting someone you'll like vs having one unsuccessful date).

People need to at least understand what's being done and they need to give consent before it happens. Otherwise, you're literally toying with people's lives. And in this case it's not in some insignificant way: you're manipulating their romantic and sexual endeavors. It's actually far, far more invasive than what Uber did as they described it in the blog post.

Have you read the terms and conditions of your latest bank account? The level of forced-consent to thrid party disclosure may alarm you.

Re: Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

#105

Post by meowface »

001sky wrote: post #104
meowface wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to at least understand what's being done and they need to give consent before it happens. Otherwise, you're literally toying with people's lives. And in this case it's not in some insignificant way: you're manipulating their romantic and sexual endeavors. It's actually far, far more invasive than what Uber did as they described it in the blog post.

Have you read the terms and conditions of your latest bank account? The level of forced-consent to thrid party disclosure may alarm you.

That's a completely different category of life violation though. Imagine instead that your bank was lying to you about your account balance, modifying it to be plus or minus 3% of the actual balance. Without your consent or knowledge. All to conduct a "psychology/market experiment".

Then it would be equivalent.

Re: Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

#106

Post by wodenokoto »

viscanti wrote: post #95
wodenokoto wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is context. Had uber been a really fun company, we would laugh at insights into our very being. But since they are accused of trying to dig up dirt on people, this is a chilling reminder that they are more than capable of doing that, and apparently quite willing.

But this was from 2012, when Uber was a "fun" company. They were doing on-demand valentines and mariachi bands. It's in line with a small startup (which they were), and doesn't present any sensitive information.

Sorry, I didn't notice the date, I just saw it on HN the other day and thought "What were they thinking?"

Makes sense to remove it now, since it isn't something they want to highlight in light of recent events.

Re: Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

#107

Post by Jach »

chockablock wrote: post #99
Jach wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think that your average Uber rider would be OK with Uber employees analyzing their ride patterns (with their real names attached) to try to figure out where and when they are having sex? Sure, as long as Uber isn't broadcasting that information with their name attached. The average person really doesn't care about (or understand the extent of) data analysis (from companies or the government) -- what they car…

HIPAA's not a great example for you to use, since it does in fact limit access to protected information by employees (under a 'minimum necessary' standard) [0]. You can even serve time in federal prison for a violation without disclosing anything [1]. >People who want to control all their data are hoping for a fantasy world where observations and inferences by third parties are magically made impossible. I think you…

I think HIPPA is a great example precisely because it goes beyond "don't disclose this", it also regulates "safe storage requirements", whose purpose is ultimately to make unwanted disclosure (through breaches, rogue employees, etc.) less likely, of whatever scale. (e.g. my plaintext password for a service shouldn't ever be disclosed to even a single person.) I think we're in agreement about people generally expecting professionalism.

Re: Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

#108

Post by [deleted] »

potatolicious wrote: post #61
cddotdotslash wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manhattanite here. Taxis are still terrible for some things. While it's almost never impossible to find one, they still do the same tricks of "oh, the credit card machine is broken," and "I'll only drive uptown right now," and "I don't drive to JFK in the morning." I can't stand a lot of Uber's ethical practices, but I still prefer them over cabs.

Another Manhattanite here, I actually prefer cabs to Uber, though I prefer Lyft over both. Uber drivers in the last year have become, without fail, become much worse at pathfinding than cab drivers. I've had drivers completely miss major turns or get lost while the meter's running. And more recently, I've noticed a pattern of behavior where I'd call an Uber and the car wouldn't even begin moving for > 5 minutes. I'm…

[deleted]

Re: Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

#109

Post by mgalka »

It is a bit unsettling that this information is out there, but I agree that it is fairly obvious that they have this data. And as long as they are not exposing the individuals, I don't see it as irresponsible to publish something like this.

There was a related story published recently, NYC Taxicab Dataset Exposes Strip Club Johns and Celebrity Trips

http://research.neustar.biz/2014/09/15/riding-with-the-stars...

Re: Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

#110

Post by 001sky »

meowface wrote: post #105
001sky wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read the terms and conditions of your latest bank account? The level of forced-consent to thrid party disclosure may alarm you.

That's a completely different category of life violation though. Imagine instead that your bank was lying to you about your account balance, modifying it to be plus or minus 3% of the actual balance. Without your consent or knowledge. All to conduct a "psychology/market experiment". Then it would be equivalent.

Nothing in this post involved distortion of customer data. They just linked up transcation time/date and geo-location data. Then did some simple math. It's not out of the question that your payment processor could replicate this analysis...Once your credit card processor cuts a deal to geo-tag your purchase history. Of course almost all fixed POS hardware is geomapped, and the mobile stuff is trackavle, so that's not much of a stretch.
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