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Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

theguardian.com

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Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#101

Post by usbreply »

Sven7 wrote: post #71
fadzlan wrote: post #37

Worked with one big Indian company here in Malaysia last time and I see intimidation as common means of dealing with employees. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work well here, since most of people have a lot of choices moving around. I've been pushed to accept work that has a minimum wage in a different country, despite my experience and the fact I can't possibly survive with my family there. I've had my resume jack…

How do they get them to pay a years worth of salary if they quit? I doubt this ever happens. Though I don't doubt fresh grads believing them and sticking it out.

Typically the employee's father (or some similarly close relative) will sign a legal agreement with the employer promising to pay back the employee's wages if the employee disappears. (Legally I believe this is similar to a guarantor for a bank loan.)

Though this probably won't stand up in court, most employees wouldn't risk putting their own father through the trouble of finding out.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#102

Post by hga »

usernamepc wrote: post #46
gxs wrote: post #20

When I graduated from colllege I started working at a top tech company on a contract to hire. The company was paid 50/hr fore and I was paid 20 an hour. When I asked for more, the indian-born Indian CEO of the company went apeshit on me. No real story only that almost everyone is scum. It's not just the companies. When I told the director of my org what I was getting paid she hired me full time right away at a compet…

There are two reasons (both sort of hard to fix) for why contracting is screwed up. 1. Co-employment- Large companies like Google or Apple would love to hire contractors directly but are very scared of being sued by contractors that can claim they were actually employees-not contractors because of the unclear rules around who is/is not an employee. So they introduce a staffing agency in between to become the 'employe…

Companies are also scared the IRS will come after them with a rusty knife for hiring "contractors" that per the 1986 law that removed the safe harbor are really employees. That's probably more of a threat than losing a "permatemp" lawsuit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp).

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#103

Post by reduce »

hga wrote: post #98
reduce wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company." No, that is not ever reasonable anywhere in any situation. May be typical, but not reasonable.

It strikes me as a debatable point, which is what I believe fadzlan is saying. The company gets particularly cheap labor, the fresh grad gets training and real experience they can put on their resume . Plenty of people in the US are willing to work for free (intern) to get the latter.

Working for free is completely different, because you're never in a trap where you owe the employer any repayment. I don't really see how you could claim these scenarios are the same at all.

These type of debt bond contracts are the foundation that has been used to legally justify modern slavery for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's still the legal foundation of slavery in the many places where it's practiced today. Add to that, do you realize the extend to which it's still legally possible to enforce debt repayment in many countries? "Debt" is an extremely bad condition to be in, that can legally allow all kinds of terrible things to happen to you, if you're in certain countries.

Employees should absolutely never be put into the situation where they owe monetary repayment to an employer, in any conditions, except for if the employees break some kind of universal criminal law.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#104

Post by gnufied »

houseofshards wrote: post #18

The worst part here is that H1B visas allocated to these scumbag companies end up starving genuine companies of these visas.

Can't agree more. I don't know if it will be viable to insert a clause in H1B terms which severely restricts number of available visas for companies whose sole purpose is staffing.

These scumbag companies affect startup eco-system in India too. For many engineers - the only reason to work for these companies is to get into US. They pay shitty salaries back in India, have shitty working conditions. The only reason, I have seen people sticking to them is - get enough experience and go to US on L1/H1B. And speaking from experience, many Indians will do anything to get to US. :(

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#105

Post by yen223 »

yid wrote: post #93
yen223 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company." Even by Malaysian standards this is just ridiculous. The tech scene in Malaysia is growing - people really shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense.

Thats a lovely sentiment. Unfortunately, commoditization of common skills is bound to hit. Things won't be as rosy after.

Two things. First, software engineering skills aren't fungible commodities. It's not easily commoditized, no matter how much we want it to be.

Secondly, I can confidently say that Malaysia is nowhere near suffering from too much talent.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#106

Post by uberwach »

massmana wrote: post #100
objclxt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no evidence that H-1Bs are destroying the local talent pool in SF. I can't speak to LA myself, but from what I hear it's not doing that either. H-1Bs aren't the reason you've think you've "ruined [your] life being a coder in Los Angeles". Your profile has you down as an Android developer: I met a co-founder based in LA last week who was bemoaning the lack of good mobile app talent. I frequently get hit up from…

It makes IT work low-class. This, I believe is the true reason women don't work in IT.

Do you have data for these claims?

Here in Germany most women prefer career paths that are paid worse than IT modulo medicine. Also, IT is not considered low-class, maybe because there are many academics in IT.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#107

Post by nrbafna »

denzil_correa wrote: post #96
Sven7 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if you break it?

The company asks you to pay which you should NOT because it is illegal. The company however can hold you ransom to exit letter etc. which proves that you worked for the company. However, most people do not take that route. There are smart ways to avoid that coercion.

It is not illegal in India.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#108

Post by [deleted] »

uberwach wrote: post #106
massmana wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes IT work low-class. This, I believe is the true reason women don't work in IT.

Do you have data for these claims? Here in Germany most women prefer career paths that are paid worse than IT modulo medicine. Also, IT is not considered low-class, maybe because there are many academics in IT.

[deleted]

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#109

Post by fennecfoxen »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #55
selmnoo wrote: post #3

This bullying persists at the bottom of a complex system that supplies workers to some of America’s richest and most successful companies, such as Cisco Systems, Verizon and Apple. I find this extremely confusing, why companies like Facebook and Apple and others in SV, that're sitting on an unbelievable shitload of cash take filthy shortcuts like this, screw the very people that work for them so badly. I mean, seriou…

Why on Earth would a for-profit, capitalist corporation not force down labor wages to maximize profits? Maximizing profits is their sole imperative. They do not love you, nor do they hate you, but your labor has a market value they can use for something else ;-). If we don't like it, we can unionize.

Most people in the programming business are quite okay un-unionized and with capitalist corporations employing them, because while said corporations are quite willing to push down wages to save money, there are also plenty willing to push up wages if that's what it takes to hire someone decent. That's why talented senior people in New York and San Francisco can make $150,000/yr. It works both ways.

The problem with the H1-B slave is that he doesn't properly have the option of employers competing on any level, because of Immigration Regime Legal Shenanigans.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#110

Post by hga »

reduce wrote: post #103
hga wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It strikes me as a debatable point, which is what I believe fadzlan is saying. The company gets particularly cheap labor, the fresh grad gets training and real experience they can put on their resume . Plenty of people in the US are willing to work for free (intern) to get the latter.

Working for free is completely different, because you're never in a trap where you owe the employer any repayment. I don't really see how you could claim these scenarios are the same at all. These type of debt bond contracts are the foundation that has been used to legally justify modern slavery for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's still the legal foundation of slavery in the many places where it's practiced…

Debt bond in a country where that's not dischargeable or otherwise evadable is indeed such a legal foundation. From the way fadzlan portrayed Malaysia I didn't get the impression it was so dire there.

All I'm saying is that it's a debatable point, to which I'll add the caveat of your slavery point. Per the article some US courts agree, even the win described at the end of it meant the case wasn't struck down as a matter of law, a jury was required for fact finding.

Having worked with an brilliant exploited H-1B holder before at Lucent, earning 60% what I was for a job he was arguably as qualified for, you can guess on which side of the debate I'm on.

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