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The LaTeX cargo cult

joshparsons.net

101–110 of 134 posts

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#101
Markdown is a great idea, but are there markdown based solutions for 1) figure numbering and caption handling, 2) references, 3) automatically updating an index?

Anyone in academia needs to worry about all of these, and solutions in Word are sufficiently worse than LaTeX, which automatically updates all references, heading numbers, regenerates figures that have changed, and tracks your index for longer documents like theses.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#102
post #24
post #8

> LaTeX input files are proprietary to LaTeX, just as .doc is Word. The only definition of LaTeX as a language is “whatever LaTeX does”. I am sorry but I don't see this point... Everybody is free to write a parser for .tex files and use it for whatever reason they want... You are not free to do so with .doc or other proprietary format...

The multitude of third-party .doc readers would seem to disprove that assertion. In any case, it's clear from the text that he uses "proprietary" to mean "specified only by the canonical implementation". In this respect, .tex qualifies but .doc no longer does, although .doc is so bizarre and complex that writing another parser from the spec is... challenging.

Libraries such as wv has been built by reverse engineering the format, not from official specifications. The latter turned out to be pretty much useless as they didn't contain enough information to actually parse .doc in the wild.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#103
post #68

The biggest advantage of latex is that by (mostly) separating content from presentation, you can use revision control systems like git or svn to collaborate on papers. You can be in that final hour before the paper submission deadline, on a skype call with four authors scattered around the world, all simultaneously editing the paper (each using whatever tools they prefer), and be reasonably confident it won't all end…

I always see this claim that latex separates content from presentation, but I don't see how it's true. As the article says, \emph{hello} is implemented in terms of font commands; it entangles the semantics (emphasis) and the presentation (italicisation), and there is no way to extract the semantics of a latex document and render it in a different format the way you can with e.g. Markdown.

Bad example, because \emph means emphasis, not italics, and you can represent the emphasis in any way you want — the italics is just the default. So there is separation of format and content.

Though it's true that it's not enforced.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#104

The biggest advantage of latex is that by (mostly) separating content from presentation, you can use revision control systems like git or svn to collaborate on papers. You can be in that final hour before the paper submission deadline, on a skype call with four authors scattered around the world, all simultaneously editing the paper (each using whatever tools they prefer), and be reasonably confident it won't all end…

There is a big difference between the web (HTML + CSS) and LaTeX (LaTex + styles) worlds in terms of culture, and that defeats the idea of "separating content from presentation".

On the web, that content and presentation are separate, that's a technically a possibility, and culturally an actuality. That is, while you have the technical tools to apply such a separation, the toolkit does not force it on you; you can choose to write html with in-place defined colors and font sizes and other style elements. That the standards are higher than that and one is expected to write clean structural HTML and specify style separately with CSS is just a cultural phenomenon.

In the LaTeX world (scientific community), separation of content and presentation is also technically feasible, but the culture that maintains it as standard is missing. Most LaTeX documents are written by scientists who just want the damn thing look as they prefer, and apply all nasty tricks that the system can offer to get at there. The more computer savvy ones engage macro writing to save them a few keystrokes, but that's far from a way of document authoring that keeps content and presentation separate.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#105

The biggest advantage of latex is that by (mostly) separating content from presentation, you can use revision control systems like git or svn to collaborate on papers. You can be in that final hour before the paper submission deadline, on a skype call with four authors scattered around the world, all simultaneously editing the paper (each using whatever tools they prefer), and be reasonably confident it won't all end…

There is a big difference between the web (HTML + CSS) and LaTeX (LaTex + styles) worlds in terms of culture, and that defeats the idea of "separating content from presentation". On the web, that content and presentation are separate, that's a technically a possibility, and culturally an actuality. That is, while you have the technical tools to apply such a separation, the toolkit does not force it on you; you can ch…

Over the years I've written nearly 200 papers with about 70 co-authors, probably 75% of them done in latex (most of the rest in some nroff/troff variant). The process of latex authoring usually involves iteration, with different authors contributing different sections, then a certain amount of rewriting of each other's content. Papers typically have a page limit - often 12 pages. But you ignore all that while coming up with the first few drafts. A couple of days out from the submission deadline, someone (often me) starts to panic that the paper is 16 pages and needs to be 12. That's when you start going through and copy-editing, trimming non-essential content and rephrasing for conciseness. Only during the last 48 hours do you start to worry about tuning the layout, because you know from experience that it will likely all change in the last day. In the last day you're doing fine tuning, panicking that the paper is still 13 paqes and needs to be 12. Now you do a layout tuning pass, and it's now that authors tend to get into all the nasty tricks like negative vspace, tuning caption distances, and so forth. Even then, your co-authors are probably still modifying content without paying too much about the effects on layout. Finally, two hours before the deadline, you've got it down to 12 pages. Now you have to stop changing text without regards to layout.

Anyway, my point is that in the weeks/months of writing a paper, the messy mixup of content and presentation really only becomes relevant in the last two hours before the submission deadline. Up until that point, everyone is mostly using the same subset of latex, not worrying too much about the presentation part, because the coarse-grain paper layout is usually handled by the style sheet you get from the conference.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The doc (and docx) formats are actually very well documented, thanks to pressure from the EU: [MS-DOC]: Word (.doc) Binary File Format http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/office/cc313153(v=of... [MS-DOCX]: Word Extensions to the Office Open XML (.docx) File Format http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd773189(v=office.12...

"Very well" is a euphemism here, I assume? I worked in Windows Server when Microsoft was under the US DOJ consent decree and had to document every thing that looked at all like an API--even internal things that were just APIfied for design reasons / ease of testability / to make servicing simpler. I can say with some confidence that no one gave a shit about producing good quality docs. Without exception, people viewe…

Even a half-assed effort to produce a document no one cares about is "very well" compared to the majority of mission critical and/or open source systems out there for which the only documentation is a README and, if you're lucky, some mailing list archives.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#107
post #88

When I started grad school, I initially used LaTeX to prepare my articles. But then my advisor tried to open one of my documents on his machine (Windows, I'm using a Mac) and some kind of weird error came up. So we spent one whole advising session with him searching for MiKTeX and installing it, whereupon my document still wouldn't load for whatever reason. Then once BibTeX got in the mix, it became even messier. Wel…

TeX sources are only for co-authors. Everybody else gets the generated pdf. Advisors et al can annotate the pdf or print-and-scribble. All my publishing venues only gave templates and required a pdf.

The preferred format for arXiv submissions is source.

http://arxiv.org/help/submit#text

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#108
LaTeX, and TeX, are the last gasp of a long line of development. That line starts with MIT's RUNOFF, which begat roff, nroff ("New ROFF"), troff, ditroff, psroff, and finally TeX. It's the last of the programming-language like word processing systems.

TeX assumes your final output is paper. That's an obsolete assumption. The math features are concerned with presentation. You can't cut a formula from TeX and paste it into Mathematica or MathCAD and have it understood. TeX doesn't understand mathematical notation; it just format it for printing.

We need to get past that.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#109

LaTeX, and TeX, are the last gasp of a long line of development. That line starts with MIT's RUNOFF, which begat roff, nroff ("New ROFF"), troff, ditroff, psroff, and finally TeX. It's the last of the programming-language like word processing systems. TeX assumes your final output is paper. That's an obsolete assumption. The math features are concerned with presentation. You can't cut a formula from TeX and paste it…

I think wolfram alpha has some support for tex notation.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#110
post #89
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he understands what the word "proprietary" means. It means that the file format is secret or there are legal constraints on its use. Until recently Word documents clearly counted as prorietary, but now that microsoft has been forced to document its format to some degree .doc is listed as "controversially" proprietary on wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary_format Even today you will need…

The point is, are there any other applications that will render a LaTeX document correctly that aren't LaTeX itself? It's open source, but in practice the code is so complicated and large no one has ever duplicated it. It's not proprietary in the traditional sense, but if you want your LaTeX file to not be mangled, you must use LaTeX itself.

> no one has ever duplicated it

But it is Free, so why are you duplicating it? I must be missing something.

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