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Rich, Black, Flunking

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Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#101

Post by maarek »

dschobel wrote: post #100
dasil003 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a more scientific approach is of little help here. The issue is too emotionally charged. Most people have pre-conceived notions about where the problem lies, and they will go to great lengths to cherry pick their evidence. Ogbu's research is useful today simply because political correctness has reached a point where we can't even consider the role minorities play in their own academic achievement. 50 years ag…

This is what struck me most about the academics (!) who were criticizing his work in the article. "I find it useless to argue with people like Ogbu," says Urban League educational fellow Ronald Ross, himself a former school superintendent. "We know what the major problems in this school system are: racism, lack of funding, and unqualified teachers." This guy's issue isn't with any particular bit of Ogbu's methodology…

It sounds like you don't know many academics.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#102

Post by dagw »

Tichy wrote: post #16
yardie wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you don't have kids. Whether you do or don't like school is immaterial. The fact is, schools take up a majority of your kids' time until they graduate and get a life of their own. By default, you should be interested in what your kid is learning. No one is asking you to sit in class 8 hours a day, but at least get to know what it is they are learning. If my kid takes an interest in music, I'm there, wrestling?…

"By default, you should be interested in what your kid is learning." I hope they would learn interesting stuff, but if they don't, should I really try to make them believe it is interesting? I personally hated school for most of my life, and I have a hard time putting my kids through the same thing. Maybe it would help them more if I told them that I understand why they hate school so much. My goal would be to teach…

I personally hated school for most of my life, and I have a hard time putting my kids through the same thing.

So put them through a different thing. There are several different types of schools offering several different educational philosophies. If you look around a bit you might just find something that is a good match for your kid.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#103

Post by radu_floricica »

thras wrote: post #99
radu_floricica wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where I originally found him (from HN actually): http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/stanovich1 But you won't find much more in this, unfortunately. For the link (or lack thereof) between IQ and critical reasoning search for Stanovich, it's mostly his own research. For link between (parts of) critical reasoning and academic success look up Mischel's marshmallow experiment. Personally I never saw 0.8 c…

Impulse control is strongly linked with IQ. Also, which 0.8 correlation were you asking about?

Can you point me in a direction for source?

Academic success and income, sorry.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#104

Post by tokenadult »

I see this thread is still quite active. I was just at the behavorial genetics journal club meeting at the University of Minnesota

http://www.psych.umn.edu/courses/fall09/mcguem/psy8935/defau...

today, and I had occasion there to hear Tom Bouchard, indisputably one of the leading experts on human behavioral genetics research, say that the number-one thing to tell members of the general public who read about this research is "correlation does not imply causation." The simple blunder of assuming that phenomena with some kind of positive correlation are in a cause-effect relationship is one of the most enduring cognitive biases in human thinking, and the bias doesn't appear to be any less frequent in high-IQ persons, nor does it appear to go away even after student receive statistical education.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#105

Post by krschultz »

ilyak wrote: post #97
ErrantX wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the exact reason they push interns beyond breaking point. My friend regularly made silly, dangerous mistakes when tired - every time he did a serious dressing down ensued. Because he was an intern a qualified doctor always double checked him so none of the mistakes were enacted. But he learned his limits and how far it was safe to go. People put their lives in the hands of doctors; they are under pressure, ove…

Still this can be arranged as a well-defined test instead of humiliation crapfest. Everything can be.

No, it can't. I am doing research on medical robotics/robotic analogs for surgical practice. Psychologically you can't create the same feelings when the people know it is fake.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#106

Post by davidw »

krschultz wrote: post #105
ilyak wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still this can be arranged as a well-defined test instead of humiliation crapfest. Everything can be.

No, it can't. I am doing research on medical robotics/robotic analogs for surgical practice. Psychologically you can't create the same feelings when the people know it is fake.

Ok, but when it's real and people tell you that they're beyond their limit, in some fields, pushing further is a bad idea. Piloting, mountaineering and surgery come to mind immediately.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#107

Post by natrius »

kingkongrevenge wrote: post #91
natrius wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using a fairly prescriptive definition of race. Race, as commonly used, is a social construct. Ancestry functions the way you describe, but as the example given above shows, "race" and ancestry are not directly related.

> "race" and ancestry are not directly related Of course they are.

Ancestry is objective. Race is subjective. There is a many-to-many relationship between the two. If people say you're black, then you're black. Different groups may come to different conclusions on what your race is depending on varying social norms. If you disagree with this, then you're not using "race" in the same way that the rest of country is.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#108

Post by tokenadult »

thras wrote: post #87
radu_floricica wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying there is _no_ genetic component - I would be surprised if it wasn't. Just that compared to culture it's not important. I didn't read The Bell Curve, but as far as I know (and refreshed with a bit of googling) it states that IQ is partly hereditary - I don't think anybody doubts this - and makes it easy to go further and say some groups of people are smarter. This is most likely true, but still not so i…

These books come out every so often. 5 years ago "emotional intelligence" sold copy. IQ has a heritability coefficient of between .5 and .8. The rest seems to be non-shared environment. IQ is a very good predictor of academic success and future income (.7 to .8 correlation). There's a hell of a lot of research out there that has shown this again and again. I'd like to see Stanovich's definition of "critical reasoning…

IQ has a heritability coefficient of between .5 and .8.

Kindly explain why that is at all relevant to the issue at hand. (Since you have been carrying on a conversation with another participant here as the thread has deepened, it might be a good idea to make clear just what point of his you were responding to with that point.)

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#109

Post by tokenadult »

thras wrote: post #87
radu_floricica wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying there is _no_ genetic component - I would be surprised if it wasn't. Just that compared to culture it's not important. I didn't read The Bell Curve, but as far as I know (and refreshed with a bit of googling) it states that IQ is partly hereditary - I don't think anybody doubts this - and makes it easy to go further and say some groups of people are smarter. This is most likely true, but still not so i…

These books come out every so often. 5 years ago "emotional intelligence" sold copy. IQ has a heritability coefficient of between .5 and .8. The rest seems to be non-shared environment. IQ is a very good predictor of academic success and future income (.7 to .8 correlation). There's a hell of a lot of research out there that has shown this again and again. I'd like to see Stanovich's definition of "critical reasoning…

IQ is a very good predictor of academic success and future income (.7 to .8 correlation).

I'm joining the call of another participant here for references to back up that statement.

There just isn't that much left to predict

This seems to be mistaking a statement about what is currently observed with a statement about what might be possible under experimental interventions. No one has shown what the maximum possible influence of other independent variables might be.

I'm going to bet that whatever he [Keith Stanovich] has defined as "critical reasoning" actually has a high correlation with IQ when measured.

You will lose the bet. He and other authors on cognitive psychology and behavioral economics have already repeatedly replicated the result that many forms of rationality have meager or no correlation with IQ. He cites the references in his book.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#110

Post by randallsquared »

silentbicycle wrote: post #22
randallsquared wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I hope you don't have kids" is, as far as I can see, very nearly the worst thing you can say to someone, if you mean it seriously. So far, everyone dies, but at least there's a chance that part of them will live on through their children; saying you'd prefer that they never have any legacy is even worse than flatly wishing they'd die.

You can have a legacy without having kids.

That's true, you can. How many adults of 100 years ago have a legacy today without considering their kids? A few million? How many of 1000 years ago? Thousands, at most? Kids are more reliable than making the history books or being involved in building or monument that happens to stand for a while.
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