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Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data

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Re: Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data

#101

Post by johnward »

rmc wrote: post #63
shostack wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that what you proposed with regards to presenting a competing offer to your current employer is typically a card you only play once. More than that and you tend to be viewed as a mercenary who causes problems. Plus, the people you are presenting this to will quite likely feel like they've had a gun put to their heads in a situation they may have very little direct control over, and nobody likes being put…

Also, don't do it without being ready to make the switch--you never know when your company will call your bluff and say "ok, enjoy your new job, your last day is today." That heavily depends on your region. In places like the EU you cannot be fired on the spot for something like that.

Generally if you threaten to quit you should be prepared to quit. In the US most employment is considered "at will" unless a contract specifies otherwise (and a few states have different laws). Meaning employer or employee can terminate the agreement at any time for any reason or no reason. The exception to that is if you were fired for prejudicial reasons and you are a protected class (sexism, racism, etc). That means I can quit today with no notice required. It also means my employer can hand me my last paycheck today and tell me to take a hike.

An example of this. My wife's employer recently found out she had applied for a job at another company. They fired her that day. She didn't get the other position and the previous employer is blocking unemployment compensation.

Re: Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data

#102

Post by johnward »

rcoder wrote: post #97
johnward wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this to be true. However, in some cases you can get a competing offer and have your current employer match it. My experience is that suggesting you are underpaid without a competing offer doesn't get you very far. Most employers will pay you as little as possible given the market and in the tech market you can jump ship.

I strongly disagree with this. It may be true at many companies, but not anywhere I would ever work (esp. as a manager). Requiring people to have a competitive offer in-hand basically says, "if you want a raise, go interview somewhere else." That's toxic and only effective for the people who game the system. Responsible employers owe their employees a fair (according to market, their peers, and their contributions) w…

"Requiring people to have a competitive offer in-hand basically says, "if you want a raise, go interview somewhere else." That's toxic and only effective for the people who game the system."

I agree with you on this. However, that's just how it works at all of the places I have worked for. Except for one. The startup I was at before we were acquired by a large tech company. However, being a startup we were already strapped for cash and were not being paid market rates but had some equity. That turned out to be decent when we cashed in but not enough for most of us to cover the salary difference.

I fully agree that employers should be proactive to ensure that good employees are happy and want to stay with the company. It should be mutually beneficial but I have yet to find a place like that. In the mega corps this just can't happen because of red tape. If you don't ask you will just get the standard 2% or whatever it is each year. Many times if you do ask the manager can't do anything about it anyway. I've brought it up that my hourly rate is 1/8 the rate I bill out at and am told that's just how it works.

Re: Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data

#103

Post by johnward »

kelukelugames wrote: post #94
JimboOmega wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you're being underpaid; what is the right strategy to take? I don't want to poison the working relationship with people above me.

The first thing is to be brave. Understand that the market is currently in your favor. If you leave then you will make new friends and form new relationships. And if you leave then management will likely be very nice to you for two reasons: 1) to build their own network and 2) it kills morale if others see you being treated poorly. If they treat you poorly then no one from your network will ever work for them. And if…

My wife was told "money isn't everything" when she asked for a dollar raise from $10 to $11 an hour...

Re: Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data

#104

Post by rmc »

johnward wrote: post #101
rmc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, don't do it without being ready to make the switch--you never know when your company will call your bluff and say "ok, enjoy your new job, your last day is today." That heavily depends on your region. In places like the EU you cannot be fired on the spot for something like that.

Generally if you threaten to quit you should be prepared to quit. In the US most employment is considered "at will" unless a contract specifies otherwise (and a few states have different laws). Meaning employer or employee can terminate the agreement at any time for any reason or no reason. The exception to that is if you were fired for prejudicial reasons and you are a protected class (sexism, racism, etc). That mea…

Yes, I agree that if you threaten to quit, you should be willing/able to follow through. And yes in the USA, the could call your bluff and sack you, but in the EU, they cannot do that. So the equation has changed.

Re: Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data

#105

Post by crazypyro »

e12e wrote: post #96
kelukelugames wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google famously did it many years ago. Microsoft did it a few years ago. Every engineer got a 10% raise.

Funny, after they'd entered into an agreement to fix the pay across (a substantial part of) the industry?

No, that was only Steve Jobs and now that Steve Jobs is dead, there is no evil!

Re: Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data

#106

Post by johnward »

rmc wrote: post #104
johnward wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally if you threaten to quit you should be prepared to quit. In the US most employment is considered "at will" unless a contract specifies otherwise (and a few states have different laws). Meaning employer or employee can terminate the agreement at any time for any reason or no reason. The exception to that is if you were fired for prejudicial reasons and you are a protected class (sexism, racism, etc). That mea…

Yes, I agree that if you threaten to quit, you should be willing/able to follow through. And yes in the USA, the could call your bluff and sack you, but in the EU, they cannot do that. So the equation has changed.

In the US California seems to be the closest to some of the worker rights the EU has.

Re: Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data

#107

Post by rmc »

johnward wrote: post #106
rmc wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree that if you threaten to quit, you should be willing/able to follow through. And yes in the USA, the could call your bluff and sack you, but in the EU, they cannot do that. So the equation has changed.

In the US California seems to be the closest to some of the worker rights the EU has.

Sorta like how Iran isn't quite as theocratic as Saudi Arabia is? I mean, they let women drive in Iran!

As a EUian, that's how I'd feel about California.

Re: Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data

#108

Post by kelukelugames »

kelukelugames wrote: post #2

I love these things. Transparency in salary information gives the employees more power. I know the site is down at the moment but it's worth it to bookmark and come back later. Make sure you set the search fields to 2013 or 2012 to 2013 to remove stale salaries. You don't want to negotiate using data from 2009. ;) Here is comparing google to microsoft to amazon in Seattle. The gaps are pretty wide even for college hi…

here is a donation page to show our gratitude. https://gratipay.com/roguelynn/

Re: Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data

#109

Post by vampirechicken »

seanflyon wrote: post #67
vampirechicken wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it takes bonuses to get you to market rates, then you're still underpaid.

This is not true. You are only underpaid if you compensation is below market rate compensation. If I got paid $1 plus a $1 million bonus I would not be underpaid. You should consider how much risk you are willing to take and how likely it is that you will get a smaller (or larger) than expected bonus.

I'm not sure that your argument is a false dichotomy, but it smells of logical fallacy to me.

Using the pathological case to prove your point rather than a more likely case is disingenuous at best.

I'm talking about people trying to make an honest living, and having to deal with nests of vipers while trying get reasonably compensated.

If market is 104k, don't offer me 52k salary + 52k bonus, because I have to say I make 52, not 104 - well below market.

To me it sounds like a way to artificially deflate salaries (not specifically compensation. Your SO might want to know how much you expect to make all year, but for budgeting purposes, there's a big difference in budgeting for a 1k per week cash flow and a 2k per week cash flow.

Re: Find salaries paid at companies using foreign worker data

#110

Post by seanflyon »

vampirechicken wrote: post #109
seanflyon wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. You are only underpaid if you compensation is below market rate compensation. If I got paid $1 plus a $1 million bonus I would not be underpaid. You should consider how much risk you are willing to take and how likely it is that you will get a smaller (or larger) than expected bonus.

I'm not sure that your argument is a false dichotomy, but it smells of logical fallacy to me. Using the pathological case to prove your point rather than a more likely case is disingenuous at best. I'm talking about people trying to make an honest living, and having to deal with nests of vipers while trying get reasonably compensated. If market is 104k, don't offer me 52k salary + 52k bonus, because I have to say I m…

Disproof by counter example is not disingenuous. I pointed out that what vampirechicken wrote was clearly wrong then tried to get at the heart of the issue. I did not say to count each dollar of maximum bonus (or even expected bonus) as the same value as a dollar of salary, in fact I said the opposite. The value of a bonus is the expected value minus the cost of volatility. You correctly point that you should also subtract the cost of delay.

When you are comparing your current compensation package to the industry standard the better one is the one that is worth more to you. You might put an unusually high or low value on risk or the cost of delaying compensation till the end of the year. You might value the free lunches or health insurance more or less than the average worker. Since you are the one receiving the compensation package what matters is what it is worth to you.

The bottom line is that market rate is total compensation, not just salary. If a company offers you a 'market rate' salary with no bonus and no benefits then that offer is bellow market rate. If an offer has lower salary, but great benefits and a huge bonus then (if you will actually get the bonus) that offer is above market rate.

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