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Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

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Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#101

Post by praneshp »

clarkmoody wrote: post #76
mwfunk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree about disliking the terminology, although (as far as I know) the phrasing dates back to Lyndon Johnson's "War on Poverty" initiative in 1964. The aspiration that was being reflected there was that the US government could apply the same fervor, resources, and ingenuity to uplifting the poor that it had applied to WW1, WW2, and was then still applying to the Cold War. Because of that, I always felt like the phr…

While we're at it, I would love to see the " scandal -gate" terminology disappear as well. According to Wikipedia[1], the "war on crime" was used by Hoover in the '30s. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_as_metaphor

Heh. When I commented, I had intended to say the same thing about *-gate :)

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#102

Post by superuser2 »

ap22213 wrote: post #60
awjr wrote: post #26

"War on drugs" is a terrible world affliction. Prohibition neither works nor is conducive to a better society. Governments should just tax and sell the drugs to the general public. Alcohol is considered to be the most harmful drug but is legal because it can be taxed, controlled, and makes money. ( http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_caus... ) Governments should also support people that want drugs…

I don't see it quite so cynically. Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned. Most people that I've met (who may not be considered alcoholics) certainly have some level of alcohol dependency. And, I'm being loose here with the word 'dependency', but in the last year, I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drink…

There is such a thing as responsible, low-level alcohol consumption that doesn't turn into a spiral of addiction and self-destruction. Same with LSD. Not so much with heroin.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#103

Post by drzaiusapelord »

josefresco wrote: post #64
codeshaman wrote: post #27

Just back from Boom Festival in Portugal, where personal drug use is decriminalized. There was almost no police/security at the gates or inside the festival, although selling drugs was not tolerated (eg. people selling on the festival grounds were kindly asked to leave). There were 42.000 people from 152 countries and most of them used some kind of substance or plant there (marijuana being the most abundantly and ope…

Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities. I'm welcome your anecdotal evidence but don't find it at all relevant to the topic of how a state should handle the legal and health consequences of heroin abuse. A bunch of party-goers doing recreational drugs couldn't be farther from the realities of heroin addiction in a rural population.

>Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities

Right. I mean, a hippy-esque musical festival is going to draw in all sorts of non-violent potheads. How about the south side of Chicago? Do you think Kosmic Care is going to handle gangbangers on meth?

Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that he was on drugs:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/08/05/attacker-bites-man-on...

“In describing it to the police later, they said ‘We never see cases like that where the attacker isn’t on PCP, or bath salts, or something like that,” Lenet said. “There’s no way a normal person could have sustained that much punishment, and just walked away.”

The problem with the pro-legalization crowd is that we don't have any consistency. Some of us just want pot legalized but most of the movement seems to have this pie-in-the-sky view of legalizing just about everything. I'm afraid that we have two extremists groups: "no drugs" vs "all drugs" and per usual sane moderate voices are drowned out.

I just don't believe a "one size fits all" mentality will work here. I just don't think we should legalize drugs that are physically addictive like heroin, PCP, meth, etc.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#104

Post by maxxxxx »

brightsize wrote: post #98
johnchristopher wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in Europe, never having set a foot in the US, I take the bait: what is a Democrat like in Vermont then ?

I was told by a German, who had lived in the States for a few years in the past, that American Democrats resembled German conservatives. If that's the case it's hard to imagine what the German/European counterpart to a Republican would be.

Their economics are close to liberals (not the american definition). I don't think there is an equivalent for the religious right. At least not in Germany

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#105

Post by mpthrapp »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #103
josefresco wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities. I'm welcome your anecdotal evidence but don't find it at all relevant to the topic of how a state should handle the legal and health consequences of heroin abuse. A bunch of party-goers doing recreational drugs couldn't be farther from the realities of heroin addiction in a rural population.

>Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities Right. I mean, a hippy-esque musical festival is going to draw in all sorts of non-violent potheads. How about the south side of Chicago? Do you think Kosmic Care is going to handle gangbangers on meth? Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that…

Yeah, why would we ever legalize physically addictive drugs like cigarettes or alcohol? Oh wait.

I'm not saying anything about the legalization of Heroin, just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#106

Post by drzaiusapelord »

mpthrapp wrote: post #105
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities Right. I mean, a hippy-esque musical festival is going to draw in all sorts of non-violent potheads. How about the south side of Chicago? Do you think Kosmic Care is going to handle gangbangers on meth? Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that…

Yeah, why would we ever legalize physically addictive drugs like cigarettes or alcohol? Oh wait. I'm not saying anything about the legalization of Heroin, just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization.

I'm all for making nicotine illegal. Alcohol isn't physically addictive like heroin.

>just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization.

Probably better than the current standards. I'd love to live somewhere where cigarettes were illegal and pot wasn't.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#107

Post by mikeash »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #103
josefresco wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities. I'm welcome your anecdotal evidence but don't find it at all relevant to the topic of how a state should handle the legal and health consequences of heroin abuse. A bunch of party-goers doing recreational drugs couldn't be farther from the realities of heroin addiction in a rural population.

>Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities Right. I mean, a hippy-esque musical festival is going to draw in all sorts of non-violent potheads. How about the south side of Chicago? Do you think Kosmic Care is going to handle gangbangers on meth? Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that…

How does making the stuff illegal handle gangbangers on meth, exactly?

The anti-legalization crowd seems to hold it as an article of faith that criminalizing drug use results in less drug use. The arguments always come down to some variation on, "Freedom is good, but drugs are bad, so sometimes it's worth making them illegal."

I think you need to show that criminalizing physically addictive drugs like heroin, PCP, meth, etc. actually reduces their use. The evidence available so far from places like Portugal seems to indicate the opposite, although the data is far from clear.

I mean, your PCP example is from a place where all of this stuff is already highly illegal. How is that not an argument against criminalization?

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#108

Post by zo1 »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #38
codeshaman wrote: post #27

Just back from Boom Festival in Portugal, where personal drug use is decriminalized. There was almost no police/security at the gates or inside the festival, although selling drugs was not tolerated (eg. people selling on the festival grounds were kindly asked to leave). There were 42.000 people from 152 countries and most of them used some kind of substance or plant there (marijuana being the most abundantly and ope…

Yes ... But absolutely everything you say could apply to alcohol during say Prohibition. Look people taking the moonshine to be tested, people enjoying booze sensibly ... We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives. Yes, stop this crazy war on drugs, but don't…

"The war on drugs is mostly masking a war on mental health."

It's a war on people's right to enjoy and/or destroy themselves. All under the vague pretense of a social-good.

It's to keep control over a populace that could very quickly come to the realization that it is free to do as it pleases. Unfortunately, the more we suppress people like this, the worse off it will be when the milk and lies finally run out and they're stuck with nothing but their anger and dependance.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#109

Post by justicezyx »

DanHulton wrote: post #80
josefresco wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities. I'm welcome your anecdotal evidence but don't find it at all relevant to the topic of how a state should handle the legal and health consequences of heroin abuse. A bunch of party-goers doing recreational drugs couldn't be farther from the realities of heroin addiction in a rural population.

You do realize that a great deal of the problems associated with heroin addiction come from the very fact that it is illegal? The crime, the marginalization from society, the lack of access to health care or rehabilitation clinics, these things all make the addiction far, far worse than if we treated this whole thing a little saner and more compassionately.

No, I do not realize that "a great deal of the problems associated with heroin addiction come from the very fact that it is illegal".

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#110

Post by mpthrapp »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #106
mpthrapp wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, why would we ever legalize physically addictive drugs like cigarettes or alcohol? Oh wait. I'm not saying anything about the legalization of Heroin, just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization.

I'm all for making nicotine illegal. Alcohol isn't physically addictive like heroin. >just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization. Probably better than the current standards. I'd love to live somewhere where cigarettes were illegal and pot wasn't.

> Alcohol isn't physically addictive like heroin.

Yes it is. It's a GABA antagonist.[1]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_dependence#Drugs_that...

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