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The New Luddites: What if technological innovation is a job-killer after all?

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Re: The New Luddites: What if technological innovation is a job-killer after all?

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see a way to get there, for most nations. Big nations would have the most trouble introducing this. And what about immigration? Immigration can't be effectively regulated by any means available to a moderately democratic state. Should immigrants receive the BLS? If yes, you go broke. If no, the immigrants are essentially second-class citizens who have to work for an extremely low wage (because they would have…

> Immigration can't be effectively regulated by any means available to a moderately democratic state. That's debatable. But lets assume it for the sake of argument. > Should immigrants receive the BLS? If yes, you go broke. If no, the immigrants are essentially second-class citizens who have to work for an extremely low wage (because they would have to pay indirectly for the BLS). I think this claim is overly simplis…

Also my point about not being able to stop immigration is indeed debateable. In fact it's debated very hotly in lots of countries. And not a single country is achieving any success in this regard, no matter how strong the motivation. Look at the US and Canada and their undocumented immigrants. Already, immigration enforcement in these countries is causing more trouble than it is supposedly worth.

Re: The New Luddites: What if technological innovation is a job-killer after all?

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will people still die if I provide 10k$ how about 20k$? People will still die whatever you do (and whether you do it by BI or whether you do it by central purchasing of common goodie baskets) -- probably more in the latter case than the former, for a given expenditure level, because the overhead costs are higher and people's needs differ. > What if they're really bad at decision making and gamble it away or get rob…

"because the overhead costs are higher and people's needs differ." I don't understand how the overhead costs are higher with more predictable results and mass production (or are we defining costs differently?). Isn't the goal to provide basic living for people who can't provide for themselves instead of letting them die on the streets? I'm proposing unlimited baskets of goods purely for predictable cost reasons, it d…

> I don't understand how the overhead costs are higher

There's an agency problem when one actor is making purchasing decisions on behalf of others without any necessary alignment of interests, which, absent other controls (which themselves have a not-insignificant cost, both in terms of administration and in terms of potentially distorting results in other ways), those decisions end up reflecting interests of the decision-maker rather than the nominal beneficiaries -- this is the problem that gives us, on the one hand, outright corruption in government purchasing when there aren't adequate controls, and, where controls are adopted to fight that, frequenly byzantine bureaucratic rules nominally designed to prevent corruption that have the side effects of making both sides of government contracting more costly in administrative terms and effectively restricting government contracting to those entities that specialized in navigating those rules -- restricting competition and decreasing efficiency.

With the central welfare authority deciding what people need, where to source it from, and in what quantities, there are lots of points where either corruption opportunities or expensive corruption controls are necessary; when the only administrative determination that needs to be made is whether straightforward class membership like "citizenship", etc., are met, the number of points at which you either pay the cost of corruption or corruption controls is reduced.

> Isn't the goal to provide basic living for people who can't provide for themselves instead of letting them die on the streets?

IMO, the goal of BI is, on the theoretical side, to address systematic distributional inequities in capitalist markets, and, on the pragmatic side, to provide a glide-path out of an economy oriented around wage labor as the primary source of individual support as automation and other changes render that increasing less viable as a basis for the economy with broad prosperity.

Enabling people to avoid starving in the streets is a necessary but far from sufficient condition for that.

Re: The New Luddites: What if technological innovation is a job-killer after all?

#103
post #75
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In kind welfare is notoriously inefficient. The bureaucracy required weighs down the system. No one knows what they need better than the people themselves.

Inefficient in what terms? If you want to optimize for a nice current life for that person you give money, if you want to optimzing for getting back to work without starving then you given physical goods.

> If you want to optimize for a nice current life for that person you give money, if you want to optimzing for getting back to work without starving then you given physical goods.

If you want to optimize for getting back to work in an economy which is rapidly changing, you provide (1) resources which are flexible in form so that people can address different reasons why they might be out of work and the different needs they have to meet to get back into work, and (2) you provide aid in a form makes it easy for people to benefit from work income as additive to the aid.

Money is better for both than a standard-issue set of goods.

Re: The New Luddites: What if technological innovation is a job-killer after all?

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The incentive to take whatever job you can is that even if a job pays very little, that's on top of the basic income. The goal isn't to provide largess (is it?) its to provide the basics with no strings attached free of charge, anything beyond that should require satisfying the desires of other humans. > "citizen or legal immigrant" I understand the reason this check is necessary, I also think you're going to end u…

> The goal isn't to provide largess (is it?) its to provide the basics with no strings attached free of charge, anything beyond that should require satisfying the desires of other humans. The goal, in my view, of Basic Income is to mitigate the fundamental structural inequity of capitalist markets (particularly in the way that money/commodity exchanges work as a proxy for value/utility), to wit, that such markets wei…

> such markets weight present utility experienced by market participants by past wealth accumulation, and thus are progressively distortive in terms of distribution of utility

Are you against the accumulation of capital or do you feel it should have an upper limit? IMO money is a way to measure value provided to society and money saved is debt that hasn't been called in, whether inherited or earned. If society has seen vast productivity gains in the interim then of course money earned by mowing someones lawn a 100 years ago would go a lot further today.

I don't see the accumulation or ownership of capital as fundamental structural inequity

Re: The New Luddites: What if technological innovation is a job-killer after all?

#105
post #53
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand we (I'm in the UK) seem to be drifting in that direction, that if you don't work you get social security. I don't know that it will ever be a simple fixed amount though as the government want to encourage people to be somewhat productive rather than just getting drunk etc. Here's part of the UK system: http://www.focusondisability.org.uk/brates-1.html

Absolutely not - we're going in the other direction. "Universal credit" is an administrative project to coordinate all the existing systems. The disability payments you linked to are subject to increasingly stringent processes which end up declaring terminally ill or permanently severely disabled people "fit to work" and withdrawing the funds they need to survive. This has resulted in some poverty-related deaths and…

Guess it depends on the time frame. I was thinking more now compared with 100 years ago. I'll give you the present Tory government is trying to undo it but I think they are fighting against the tide of history.

Re: The New Luddites: What if technological innovation is a job-killer after all?

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The goal isn't to provide largess (is it?) its to provide the basics with no strings attached free of charge, anything beyond that should require satisfying the desires of other humans. The goal, in my view, of Basic Income is to mitigate the fundamental structural inequity of capitalist markets (particularly in the way that money/commodity exchanges work as a proxy for value/utility), to wit, that such markets wei…

> such markets weight present utility experienced by market participants by past wealth accumulation, and thus are progressively distortive in terms of distribution of utility Are you against the accumulation of capital or do you feel it should have an upper limit? IMO money is a way to measure value provided to society and money saved is debt that hasn't been called in, whether inherited or earned. If society has se…

> Are you against the accumulation of capital or do you feel it should have an upper limit?

Neither.

> IMO money is a way to measure value provided to society

Obviously, its a way to measure that. I specifically identified how its a problematic way to measure that -- providing equal utility to someone with greater wealth provides greater reward, which means that those who have accumulated wealth -- often aided by inheritance and circumstance of birth -- are most able to redirect society to serve their utility, including reshaping it to direct future wealth to themselves and their descendants. Left unchecked, this tends to make money, overtime, a worse and worse representation of social value provided by the person holding it, and the market value of exchanges a worse and worse measure of the social value of the exchange.

That's not to say that wealth accumulation should not be permitted nor that it should have a fixed upper limit, because those have their own problems.

But it does need to be recognized as a distortion and balanced. and that's increasingly more true the more the rewards of the economy, before considering regulatory interventions, go to capital rather than labor.

Re: The New Luddites: What if technological innovation is a job-killer after all?

#107
post #2

Current top comment: I think the answer is fairly straightforward: create a guaranteed minimum income. Tax all income after that. As productivity goes up, you increase the guaranteed minimum income. If you want more than the minimum, you go out and work, and the people who have only skills that can be done by a computer/robot more cheaply than a minimum wage work just leave the work force. Should productivity go down…

Get rid of income tax, how about that. Its not needed so much any more, since there will always be innovative ways to avoid paying tax; that is the purpose of technology, so far, it seems.
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