Your high IQ might kill your startup (2010) • Hacker News Board

Re: Your high IQ might kill your startup (2010)

#101

Post by metacorrector » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 2:02 PM UTC

PeterGriffin wrote: post #63

The point the article makes is well understood and valid: even if you have the potential, if you don't work hard to use it, you won't develop the skills and discipline for success. All right. But we don't need to cast failures and flaws as the result of "high intelligence". Just a few days ago we had an article about the "curse of smart people". It feels like a bunch of people patting themselves on the back and telli…

Can't we agree? with redefining what intelligent means on the basis of your reasonably well written discussion post? NO, we can't agree on that at all.

Your post is thoughtful and well meaning, but intelligence means... well I'm not an expert at defining it (I know my limitations, learn from me), but the people who are experts at it have devised tests for measuring it, and it's extremely well documented, and measurable, and if you have it you score high on IQ tests, and if you don't you don't.

I have it. It's been measured. And I know it when I see it in other people, and always have, even before it was measured. If we sat down to play a new board game that neither of us had seen before, I'd most likely learn it quicker and start kicking your ass sooner.

Does that guarantee success in my life? no. Does it give me some potential? yes. For some of reasons that you give. You wrote a good post. Just don't try to redefine the word intelligence just so it can be a compliment paid to a different set of people. And while we are at it, can we stop saying that people are beautiful on the inside? "Beauty is only skin deep" is an expression because that's what the word means.

Yes, I'm aware that it is in the nature of language that words evolve and humans like extending the meanings of words and making analogies and metaphors, and that it can have perfectly understandable meaning to say that people with "emotional intelligence are beautiful on the inside", but that doesn't redefine the words nor rename the concepts.

/rant

Re: Your high IQ might kill your startup (2010)

#102

Post by michaelochurch » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 2:06 PM UTC

mtdewcmu wrote: post #87

michaelochurch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to code, and am thankful that my company enables me to do it most of the time instead of dealing with a bunch of non-coding issues. I understand this, but I think that you'll eventually get bored if you can't get a sense of progress out of your work. This requires that you pick your tools and problems. If you're lucky enough to work in an open-allocation environment, and if that persists for 40 years, then tha…

The most obnoxious boss I ever had was a fellow programmer, and the problem wasn't that he was a turncoat. He was just obnoxious. I think you could take the problem you're describing and generalize it to any manager-managee relationship, and it reduces to simple bad management. Some managers will be attentive and make positive contributions, others will be inattentive and destructive. The latter style is self-defeati…

I don't know this person, but did you ever think that his obnoxiousness is the result of a broken culture of anti-intellecutalism, recklessness, and machismo that emerges naturally in a world where programmers are business subordinates, as opposed to one in which we are autonomous professionals who are sponsored rather than traditionally employed or managed?

It's not like obnoxious bosses have a tribal affiliation to "managers" versus programmers. Sure, there are some who consciously think that way, but I don't think it's the norm. The insufferable management consultant fuckheads who comprise MBA Culture don't have any conscious allegiance to "MBA Culture". They have an entitled way of thinking, for sure, but and some executives do think tribally, but I don't think that a mentality of conscious allegiance among and to "business people" is the norm.

Re: Your high IQ might kill your startup (2010)

#103

Post by aprrrr » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 2:09 PM UTC

conroe64 wrote: post #20

IMHO, to continually put "success" above everything else in your life and slave away towards that goal as the ultimate redemption in everything is a waste of your time and therefore your life. It can be such as easy sell, especially to people with low self-esteem... if only you were rich, had a great body, had success with the opposite sex, etc., etc. And always underlying it, but never spoken of, is the vain and sel…

> The hero in the story is an Israeli soldier who decided to risk his life over a few dollars in his pocket. To do what, prove he was macho?

I've seen that blog posted here before. I'm pretty sure that in the original, the follow up post mentioned offhandedly, "Sadly, Ofer was killed by a robber..." without any reflection on his self defense philosophy.

Re: Your high IQ might kill your startup (2010)

#104

Post by galfarragem » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 2:22 PM UTC

sergiotapia wrote: post #33

underwater wrote: post #17

I take issue with the assumption that you're not a success unless you're a VP at a consulting firm. In particularly the assertion that the other engineers in the story -- who for all we know may have preferred to remain in their roles -- have suffered some terrible fate that we need to be warned against.

It's funny because my dad's idea of success is owning a company and making a lot of money. I have different goals. I'd rather earn 80 a year and work 9-to-5 than slave away at work.

I walked both paths already. From a distance I realize that I was never so happy than with a 9-to-5 and having time to live in the present. Minor chances of being successful in the future with a 9-to-8(+) seem a terrible deal. I wish I could forget ambition.

DEVIL: "20 years in jail and then I will give you X millions!"

YOU:_

Re: Your high IQ might kill your startup (2010)

#105

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 2:29 PM UTC

jordanthoms wrote: post #37

sergiotapia wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny because my dad's idea of success is owning a company and making a lot of money. I have different goals. I'd rather earn 80 a year and work 9-to-5 than slave away at work.

Or own a company / work harder and save the additional cash, then retire at 40?

[deleted]

Re: Your high IQ might kill your startup (2010)

#106

Post by PeterGriffin » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 2:31 PM UTC

metacorrector wrote: post #101

PeterGriffin wrote: post #63

The point the article makes is well understood and valid: even if you have the potential, if you don't work hard to use it, you won't develop the skills and discipline for success. All right. But we don't need to cast failures and flaws as the result of "high intelligence". Just a few days ago we had an article about the "curse of smart people". It feels like a bunch of people patting themselves on the back and telli…

Can't we agree? with redefining what intelligent means on the basis of your reasonably well written discussion post? NO, we can't agree on that at all. Your post is thoughtful and well meaning, but intelligence means... well I'm not an expert at defining it (I know my limitations, learn from me), but the people who are experts at it have devised tests for measuring it, and it's extremely well documented, and measurab…

> Just don't try to redefine the word intelligence just so it can be a compliment paid to a different set of people.

I believe the word "intelligence" should pay a compliment to those people who life pays compliment to, in terms of their ability to find solutions to real world problems, and carry out their execution. If we can't do that (and I'm not saying we can), then measuring some idea of "intelligence" and assigning a flat score to it is counterproductive.

How quickly one picks up on board games... I don't know. Maybe it matters. Maybe it means something. What if those who pick up on board games slower are building a much deeper model in their mind and can reach deeper insights than their opponents? Would speed then be a misleading indicator?

Take me, I pick up on new things slower than many might. But over time I get a much better idea about it and become frustrated with the superficial way my peers see it. Am I stupid, am I smart? Who knows. Sometimes gaining too much insight is actually harming performance for real world problems. Sometimes it helps. I'm neither ashamed nor proud by this arrangement. I just have my dials set this way.

Is life like a big logical puzzle? Shouldn't we judge people by their life performance if it is? Should we not judge people by simple puzzle games if it isn't?

Lots of questions, and if you dig deeper, you'll find the experts don't know much better than us after all.

The way we measure intelligence is much like we measure candidate performance during job interviews. It's full of "experts" with recommendations, and yet the questions and challenges have little to do with the actual job, or the job performance of the candidate when hired.

Re: Your high IQ might kill your startup (2010)

#107

Post by mtdewcmu » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 2:44 PM UTC

The more I think about this and reread it, the more smug and self-serving it sounds, and the more difficult it becomes to believe that this manages to pass for a gem of wisdom and sage advice. It is nothing but a negative stereotype of people with high IQs as being essentially lazy and entitled. What motive is there to stereotype people with high intelligence? It sounds like sour grapes. Couldn't it be true, though? The history of similar stereotypes isn't good; lazy and entitled is one of the all-time most popular stereotypes of any despised out-group, and I suspect it hasn't been the go-to slander because it has a superior likelihood of turning out to be true and defensible. Here's a one-word rebuttal: doctors. We adopt stereotyped beliefs simply because of how they make us feel. Ordinarily, intelligent people would seem to make a poor target, because it's a group that, by definition, is distinguished by superiority, having as its sole determinant a very high IQ. It's not so easy to identify who around you might be in this group, and to attack it, you would seem to have to admit being less intelligent. The built-in requirement to demean your own intelligence along the way could almost just poison any possible benefit of stereotyping. But -- I'm not familiar with the name Max Klein, and it's such a combination of common names that it's almost ideal for being impervious to Google. From context and clues, though, I gather that this person must have achieved some amount of fame due to some startup-related achievement. I speculated in another comment that if anything could confer a license to feel superior to practically anyone, it would be having a successful startup. Who wouldn't want one, and by virtue of having it, in a way you are smarter than PhDs and Nobel Prize winners. The source largely makes no difference, though. You can judge a piece of writing completely on its own merits. This particular piece of writing falls apart under closer examination.

Re: Your high IQ might kill your startup (2010)

#108

Post by rimantas » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 2:45 PM UTC

hellodevnull wrote: post #66

NotVerySmart wrote: post #6

To sound intentionally arrogant and possibly ignorant, this whole write-up is captain-obvious material.

Yes I thought everybody knew by now that intelligence is pretty much insignificant when you're up against somebody with years of experience at something. There was even a very popular pop psych book about it that everyone has read (Outliers). Your high IQ might get you good grades in elementary but gaining skill (which is what you're all talking about) is done through practice.

but there is also this: http://www.spring.org.uk/2014/07/the-10000-hours-myth-practi...

Re: Your high IQ might kill your startup (2010)

#109

Post by mtdewcmu » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 2:54 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #102

mtdewcmu wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most obnoxious boss I ever had was a fellow programmer, and the problem wasn't that he was a turncoat. He was just obnoxious. I think you could take the problem you're describing and generalize it to any manager-managee relationship, and it reduces to simple bad management. Some managers will be attentive and make positive contributions, others will be inattentive and destructive. The latter style is self-defeati…

I don't know this person, but did you ever think that his obnoxiousness is the result of a broken culture of anti-intellecutalism, recklessness, and machismo that emerges naturally in a world where programmers are business subordinates, as opposed to one in which we are autonomous professionals who are sponsored rather than traditionally employed or managed? It's not like obnoxious bosses have a tribal affiliation to…

The boss I'm talking about is a special case and one-of-a-kind as far as I know. He also happens to be foreign-born and from a country that I don't know much about. But he admitted once that his friends had nick-named him Eeyore on account of his not-so-sunny disposition, so I think being obnoxious was/is a cross he has to bear alone.

I'm too far removed from corporate culture right now to really feel what you're saying. But Zed Shaw seemed to have similar gripes and he is very funny. I'm sure you know of him, but if not, look him up.

Re: Your high IQ might kill your startup (2010)

#110

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Jul 05, 2014, 3:22 PM UTC

mtdewcmu wrote: post #87

michaelochurch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to code, and am thankful that my company enables me to do it most of the time instead of dealing with a bunch of non-coding issues. I understand this, but I think that you'll eventually get bored if you can't get a sense of progress out of your work. This requires that you pick your tools and problems. If you're lucky enough to work in an open-allocation environment, and if that persists for 40 years, then tha…

The most obnoxious boss I ever had was a fellow programmer, and the problem wasn't that he was a turncoat. He was just obnoxious. I think you could take the problem you're describing and generalize it to any manager-managee relationship, and it reduces to simple bad management. Some managers will be attentive and make positive contributions, others will be inattentive and destructive. The latter style is self-defeati…

The key element is motivation. Good managers are about getting the job done.

Bad managers are all about abusing the people under them to make themselves feel more important.

These are not compatible goals.

One of the tragedies of MBA culture is that it teaches businesses to screw over employees, customers, and often shareholders too.

There's no sense of making a contribution - it's all about being the criminal with the knife, taking on people who can't defend themselves or don't even understand they're being mugged.