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New York’s Shadow Transit

newyorker.com

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Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#101

Post by humanrebar »

buyx wrote: post #79

I've commented before on HN with this important cautionary tale from South Africa: In the late 1980's the apartheid government (which was taking very tentative steps towards reform) decided to cheaply "solve" the problem of public transport in poor, black areas, while encouraging small business. Thus was born the unregulated minibus taxi industry. It all started off well, but soon, instead of a Free Enterprise utopia…

There's one data point. One with many special conditions. Calling this a failure of Free Enterprise is to ignore the conditions you are describing -- people weren't free! Violence, other strong-arm tactics, and lack of liability are the opposite of freedom. Of course Free Enterprise doesn't work when basic rights (life, liberty, property, speech, conscience) aren't protected.

And for a counter example, New York is very stingy with its medallions, which has created powerful special interest groups, and a system that serves drivers and passengers poorly in many respects.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#102

Post by driverdan »

buyx wrote: post #79

I've commented before on HN with this important cautionary tale from South Africa: In the late 1980's the apartheid government (which was taking very tentative steps towards reform) decided to cheaply "solve" the problem of public transport in poor, black areas, while encouraging small business. Thus was born the unregulated minibus taxi industry. It all started off well, but soon, instead of a Free Enterprise utopia…

> As far as I know, drivers pay "rent" to the owners, and then keep the remainder of the takings for the day...

That's how taxis work in many places, including where I live (Austin, TX). Many of the taxi drivers here lease their taxi from one of the few cab companies which are restricted by anti free market cab regulations.

> ...incentivising extreme recklessness and lawlessness as they try to complete as many trips as possible

These two are not necessarily connected. It is the government's responsibility to make sure they are not being reckless or lawless.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#103

Post by ef4 »

jrockway wrote: post #13
bennstancil wrote: post #7

It's not just that the immigrant and minority communities served by shadow transit lack access to public transportation - those areas are also severely underserved by cabs. http://blog.modeanalytics.com/taxi-drivers/

I don't think that's racism, I think that's business. Taking someone from Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal is pure profit, because it's fast and you're guaranteed a fare once you get to Grand Central. Taking someone from low-density area A to low-density area B is less profitable, so you don't see many cabs in these low-density areas. I see this in action all the time, because I tend to bike late at night when…

>That's not racism, that's just the reality of how you make money as a cab driver.

... under a bureaucratically-controlled pricing structure that ignores reality by forcing you to price all those routes the same.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#104

Post by incision »

It's funny, I somehow expected this would be about anything but dollar cabs - they're just a mundane part of life throughout the mid-Atlantic.

Where I grew up they were the cabs and delivery service since the 'legit' equivalents refused to come into the neighborhood.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#105

Post by oldgregg »

driverdan wrote: post #102
buyx wrote: post #79

I've commented before on HN with this important cautionary tale from South Africa: In the late 1980's the apartheid government (which was taking very tentative steps towards reform) decided to cheaply "solve" the problem of public transport in poor, black areas, while encouraging small business. Thus was born the unregulated minibus taxi industry. It all started off well, but soon, instead of a Free Enterprise utopia…

> As far as I know, drivers pay "rent" to the owners, and then keep the remainder of the takings for the day... That's how taxis work in many places, including where I live (Austin, TX). Many of the taxi drivers here lease their taxi from one of the few cab companies which are restricted by anti free market cab regulations. > ...incentivising extreme recklessness and lawlessness as they try to complete as many trips…

If you're in town tomorrow you should stop by the launch party for Satoshi Square- we're building a coop around free-market principles and helping startups navigate burdensome regulations.

http://satoshiatx.com

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#106

Post by feralmoan »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #83
netcan wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has always had 'Sherut' taxi vans. These usually follow regular bus routes and actually pot the bus route's number. The biggest use case is Saturdays, when public busses don't run, but it's not unknown for a 'sherut' van to arrive in some terminal trying to put together a route for any potential travelers sitting around or even to go along a long haul bus route 5 minutes ahead of the official bus and pick up p…

Most places in the world have this concept. I used shared taxis all over the Middle East. The biggest issue I think is poor documentation and standards, which can make it challenging for visitors to know how to get around.

I've probably done 6 of these types in my travels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Share_taxi#Traditional_systems_...

...didn't know they were so prevalent. Love the Jeepney's though they're just like little Chicken Bus'

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#107

Post by paul_f »

kijin wrote: post #34
WildUtah wrote: post #16

This is a great story. It's a look at how people really live in a modern city and the border between formal and informal commerce. One of the key research targets in modern sociology and economics and political science is the emergence of institutions like dollar vans. It's very difficult to get a public system to cover every route and part of the city that needs transit, but most city authorities are reluctant to li…

Most parts of American cities (and their suburbs) are covered with nothing but hundreds of blocks of dreary, monotonous, cookie-cutter single-family homes. Outside the city center, the population density drops dramatically. How many people do you think in a block full of single-family homes? A couple hundred at most. Contrast this with a city like Seoul, where nearly every block is filled with condos and apartments,…

One person's "dreary monotonous" is another person's paradise. Be careful with the value judgments. Plenty of people want the room to spread out and raise their family away from the urban density.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#108

Post by scott_karana »

ef4 wrote: post #103
jrockway wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's racism, I think that's business. Taking someone from Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal is pure profit, because it's fast and you're guaranteed a fare once you get to Grand Central. Taking someone from low-density area A to low-density area B is less profitable, so you don't see many cabs in these low-density areas. I see this in action all the time, because I tend to bike late at night when…

>That's not racism, that's just the reality of how you make money as a cab driver. ... under a bureaucratically-controlled pricing structure that ignores reality by forcing you to price all those routes the same.

Even if you could price "poor area" fares lower, how is that helpful as a taxi driver?

Cab fares don't scale, so working the same time * lower fare = less wage.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#109

Post by andylei »

humanrebar wrote: post #101
buyx wrote: post #79

I've commented before on HN with this important cautionary tale from South Africa: In the late 1980's the apartheid government (which was taking very tentative steps towards reform) decided to cheaply "solve" the problem of public transport in poor, black areas, while encouraging small business. Thus was born the unregulated minibus taxi industry. It all started off well, but soon, instead of a Free Enterprise utopia…

There's one data point. One with many special conditions. Calling this a failure of Free Enterprise is to ignore the conditions you are describing -- people weren't free! Violence, other strong-arm tactics, and lack of liability are the opposite of freedom. Of course Free Enterprise doesn't work when basic rights (life, liberty, property, speech, conscience) aren't protected. And for a counter example, New York is ve…

> a system that serves drivers and passengers poorly in many respects.

but also serves drivers and passengers pretty well in many other respects

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#110

Post by saraid216 »

incision wrote: post #104

It's funny, I somehow expected this would be about anything but dollar cabs - they're just a mundane part of life throughout the mid-Atlantic. Where I grew up they were the cabs and delivery service since the 'legit' equivalents refused to come into the neighborhood.

Define "mid-Atlantic"? I could imagine that covering everywhere from Spain to Africa to the West Indies to the American South.
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