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H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

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Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#101
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History is written by victors. Your image of Stalin is based on the history that was written about him after his death by people who openly declared themselves as victors over Stalinism. Remember, Stalin's image in 1930s was very different, culminating in Time's Man of the Year cover in 1939.

Saddam was also Man of the Year. It's not a popularity contest.

Actually, it is, but I get your point. To quote Wikepedia: As a result of the public backlash it received from the United States for naming the Khomeini as Man of the Year in 1979, Time has shied away from using figures that are controversial in the United States due to commercial reasons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Person_of_the_Year

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#102
post #49

The interview is interesting from the perspective of economic history because it reveals the prevailing thinking of the era; namely that capitalism leads to "anarchy" in production. What Stalin and others did not appreciate is that the free market produces a "hidden order", which was understood by many 18th and 19th century economists. Another major error of the era was the belief that central planning of an economy…

This counts as an ideological tangent, and therefore off-topic. There is no meaningful path from this article to Austrian economics. Edit: Perhaps this needs more explanation. "Stalin -> communism -> capitalism -> Austrians" is not a meaningful path, because there's nothing specific about it, nothing to tie it to this particular story. It merely uses the story as a launching pad to jump straight into a perennial ideo…

If you're serious about not letting every story dissolve into the same tedious arguments we've seen for the past few years, I would be so happy.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#103
The class war part of the interview is interesting because it really highlights the main part where Stalin (and most Leninists) diverged from marxism. You see it clearly in Stalins later statement:

"You, Mr Wells, evidently start out with the assumption that all men are good. I, however, do not forget that there are many wicked men. I do not believe in the goodness of the bourgeoisie."

Where Marx saw capitalists (and workers) as forced by circumstance into playing an inevitable role in society - neither inherently good or bad -, Stalin saw capitalists as "wicked men".

In general, a lot of the worst flaws of the Bolsheviks boils down to the near unwavering belief that they were on the side of good in a battle between good and evil, and an idea of a "working class" that they fetishised as near super-human.

While Marx would agitate against specific people, he would not categorise groups of people in moral terms. He attacked ideas and behaviour, and expected people would change with circumstance: The capitalist behaves like a capitalist because that is what he needs to do to protect his own interests, and if he don't act as a capitalist, he won't remain one - he will eventually face financial ruin and become part of the working class, where he will act as a worker.

In fact, in part I of the Communist Manifesto, Marx and Engels wrote:

"Altogether collisions between the classes of the old society further, in many ways, the course of development of the proletariat. The bourgeoisie finds itself involved in a constant battle. At first with the aristocracy; later on, with those portions of the bourgeoisie itself, whose interests have become antagonistic to the progress of industry; at all time with the bourgeoisie of foreign countries. In all these battles, it sees itself compelled to appeal to the proletariat, to ask for help, and thus, to drag it into the political arena. The bourgeoisie itself, therefore, supplies the proletariat with its own elements of political and general education, in other words, it furnishes the proletariat with weapons for fighting the bourgeoisie.

Further, as we have already seen, entire sections of the ruling class are, by the advance of industry, precipitated into the proletariat, or are at least threatened in their conditions of existence. These also supply the proletariat with fresh elements of enlightenment and progress."

This treatment of a persons class as a matter of circumstance was essential to Marx: Large parts of Marxist theory was based on the foundation that politics in the large is defined by people acting broadly in their self-interest, moderated by their understanding of that interest (e.g. the extent to which a class "buys" the justifications the ruling class gives; consider for example Marx' Critique of the Gotha program, where he points out that the proposed program is meaningless when it writes about "fairness" in part because the current system of distribution is "fair" according to bourgeois standards - without being explicit, the word says nothing)

But the world becomes so much easier to deal with when one can write off ones opponents as "wicked men".

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#104

The little preface says that Wells was critisized for being too 'deferential' toward Stalin (Wells was a socialist, of course). It is actually striking to me... today, one can imagine NO journalist engaging in as _confrontational_ an interview with ANY politician or person in political power. Politicians today don't even expect to talk about ideas, certainly not with journalists for publication, let alone to be chall…

Stalin was talking about ideas here, yes, but note that what he is doing in this interview is pretty much only regurgitating Leninist talking points the Bolsheviks had been repeating pretty much unchanged for a couple of decades.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#105
post #9

> But I have some experience in fighting for Socialism, and this experience tells me that if Roosevelt makes a real attempt to satisfy the interests of the proletarian class at the expense of the capitalist class, the latter will put another President in his place. The capitalists will say: Presidents come and Presidents go, but we go on for ever; if this or that President does not protect our interests, we shall fin…

But then Roosevelt was quite effective in putting the capitalists in their place for an entire generation, perhaps longer, until Nixon and later Reagan turn us to the right again.

That's putting it too strong. He reigned in some of their worst excesses, which were detrimental to the capitalist class as a whole just as much as it was detrimental to everyone else. "The capitalists" are not a single force - it's a mess of conflicting interests, just as the working class. And many of them have interests that are part aligned by parts of the working class. It's not black and white.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#106

Fascinating how important the questions of class and revolution are in this conversation (from both Stalin and Wells). Equally interesting is how theoretical and ideological the answers are. Great read!

>>Equally interesting is how theoretical and ideological the answers are. I picked up an interesting fact awhile ago, I don't have sources for you, but: Slavoj Žižek has (had?) a portrait of Stalin in his home, not as a sign of admiration, but as a reminder of how problematic ideologies are.

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Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#107
post #103

The class war part of the interview is interesting because it really highlights the main part where Stalin (and most Leninists) diverged from marxism. You see it clearly in Stalins later statement: "You, Mr Wells, evidently start out with the assumption that all men are good. I, however, do not forget that there are many wicked men. I do not believe in the goodness of the bourgeoisie." Where Marx saw capitalists (and…

Stalin was a leader, Marx was a philosopher.

> Where Marx saw capitalists (and workers) as forced by circumstance into playing an inevitable role in society - neither inherently good or bad -, Stalin saw capitalists as "wicked men".

Because politicians work for a reality change. It's not so obvious to make effective, concrete, viable change in a country, so you have to take shortcuts. Leading a country for change is like sailing a boat into space, it's dark territory and you know there are huge political and economical risks. The first effective thing Stalin could do was to neutralize self interest, because that's the one smallest thing you can do when you listen about Marx.

It's harder to sensitize everyone about the flaws of capitalism and expect real change. Maybe he could have organized country wide conferences and seminars to talk about the work of Marx instead, but you know that that's not how politics happen and work.

The difference between Marx and Stalin ? One's a philosopher and the other a politician. Even today politics cower at the ideas of Marx because of the story of the soviet union. Nobody can really implements efficient policies that 100% prevent the accidents of capitalism.

Stalin, Marx and Russia is just another example of incoherences between theory and practice.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clothing is very cheap - for a day's wages you could buy enough clothes to last years. And this is where we come to the fact that poverty has been, to some extent, exported beyond the borders of your country. In the modern world you can't just stop the economic analysis at your border, millions (if not billions) of people around the world take part in your economy and many of them are starving or malnurished and pr…

I'm not sure clothing isn't mostly automated by now. If not, it will be. The larger problem is, Nobody is needed for hand labor any more (or soon that will be the case). What do we do with the uneducated masses then? Educate them? We absolutely don't need a billion more engineers. Then what? I have no answer.

The core of Marxism basically boils down to the problem you set out above. One could summarise the core of Marxism like this:

Capitalism is exceptionally good at improving production, to the point where it will eventually put people out of work, and throw a growing number people back into poverty, and that is when a society is ready for a socialist revolution:

When all basic wants can be met, but no longer are solely for the reason of distribution rather than production.

In The German Ideology (1845), Marx warned that an attempt at a socialist revolution in a society that is not sufficiently advanced was doomed to failure as it would just make want common, and class differences would re-assert themselves. No points for recognising the long string of examples where this actually happened.

Every other part of Marxist theory pretty much serves to underpin or expand on that core.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#109
post #107
post #103

The class war part of the interview is interesting because it really highlights the main part where Stalin (and most Leninists) diverged from marxism. You see it clearly in Stalins later statement: "You, Mr Wells, evidently start out with the assumption that all men are good. I, however, do not forget that there are many wicked men. I do not believe in the goodness of the bourgeoisie." Where Marx saw capitalists (and…

Stalin was a leader, Marx was a philosopher. > Where Marx saw capitalists (and workers) as forced by circumstance into playing an inevitable role in society - neither inherently good or bad -, Stalin saw capitalists as "wicked men". Because politicians work for a reality change. It's not so obvious to make effective, concrete, viable change in a country, so you have to take shortcuts. Leading a country for change is…

Marx was a politician first, philosopher second.

Most of Marx' most influential works were political agitation written as part of his work on organising the first and second Internationals, and actively meddling in the affairs of various socialist parties.

He was under regular threat of deportation and arrest for his political work. (edit: and moved countries several times because of these threats)

We only see Marx' as predominantly a philosopher today because his political work was overshadowed by later developments.

> The first effective thing Stalin could do was to neutralize self interest, because that's the one smallest thing you can do when you listen about Marx.

On the contrary - self interest is essential to Marxism. The very core of Marx political agitation was aimed at getting the members of the working classes to understand that their self interests were separate from those of the bourgeoisie.

If you eliminate self-interest, Marxist socialism becomes impossible.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#110
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find even more interesting is that in our time class is not a subject at all. We go along like the concept of social classes was never thought of. And as for the subject of revolution, we glance over it like a ghost from the past. We act as (a society and a culture) though the current system will last forever although history, as both Stalin and Wells points out, shows us that social and economic systems gets…

With such a huge middle class in the 20th century in the U.S. and the collapse of the Soviet empire, I think a lot of politicians, economists and media pundits felt that class was no longer an issue. I suspect it will become more widely discussed again if our current economic trends continue.

What I'm seeing is that people are raising the questions, but are largely oblivious to the historical discussions of the same questions.

E.g. people are constantly - especially in tech circles - raising the spectre of automation of production and how we will deal with it in terms of unemployment, worrying about large numbers of people being plunged into unemployment, as if this is a question nobody has considered.

But that was one of Marx' core criticisms of capitalism: That he believed that while it would bring production to a point where poverty could be entirely eliminated for the first time in history, rather than doing so, its dynamics would instead lead to the paradox of overproduction and plunging millions (back) into poverty at the same time.

People didn't use to ask these questions, and when they did, if you brought up Marx' you used to get into a flamewar, and death threats were not uncommon well into the 90's. Today you tend to get a reasoned discussion and honest questions.

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