How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer • Hacker News Board

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#101

Post by acdha » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 5:34 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #84

forgottenpass wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was (Unix) ops ever not coding? I honestly don't know, I haven't been around that long. But all the old guys I know were "perl is unix duct tape" ops guys. The older, more foundational problems were getting automated back then. Now that they're solved problems, and combined with more and more people running large and/or virtual infrastructure, a new problem domain exists around spinning up machines and deployment. Th…

Yes, the devops movement is silly. In the 90s when I started, every SA knew, and used, Perl and C in their daily jobs. Then dotcom happened and every kid with a Linux box in their bedroom put themselves about as a SA. And in the 10s people think SAs who code is an amazing new invention. And back in the 60s, IBM had "systems programmers"... Same thing.

You're leaving out the other 80% of the industry – yes, IBM shops had systems programmers but every single one of them also had operators who were following a big run-book of canned procedures and diagnostic trees which sometimes ended with “Call ”. Most Unix shops I've seen had a few decent developers and a bunch of people who used tools written by the first group.

The big difference I see in devops is that people started taking system management seriously enough to do first-class development rather than an afterthought.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#102

Post by gaius » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 5:36 PM UTC

vajrabum wrote: post #51

jimmaswell wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope I'm not actually expected to know what any of those is.

If you're working or wanting to work as a Devops engineer or as a full stack engineer then you might want a new attitude about new stuff.

I currently work on an estate of thousands of unix hosts. We don't use anything on that list. Real engineering is not about jumping on bandwagons.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#103

Post by thedufer » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 5:38 PM UTC

mrottenkolber wrote: post #64

NickPollard wrote: post #18

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

Agreed. And as far as I know, 'fullstack' developer stands for being able to write high level as well as low level code. Hence the word 'stack'.

"fullstack" seems to mean server as well as client these days, since that's such a typical architecture to have. I think the high level+low level thing was the original meaning, though.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#104

Post by ternaryoperator » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 5:39 PM UTC

syncsynchalt wrote: post #44

cruise02 wrote: post #23

> ...the old "waterfall" develop-test-release cycle is seen as broken. Waterfall is not just seen as broken, it was always broken.

Agreed. The concept of "waterfall model" was given form by Winston Royce as a strawman for an argument he was making in an article, and it's disingenuous to say that it was ever a promoted model on its own merits. I prefer to think of it as the consequence of software development being tacked onto most other existing processes, without regards for the practical needs of software development.

You're talking about the original waterfall model. But waterfall as a way of developing software in phases that tended to be long and were not amenable to changing requirements was in fact practiced in most enterprises for many years. And, while not the most efficient process, it certainly did deliver good, working software. Just not efficiently. Phone switches, manned space flight, most businesses all ran on software developed this way.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#105

Post by mathattack » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 5:39 PM UTC

It seems like the OP is advocating the surgical team [0] approach to software development. This seems very consistent with DevOps. Have a group of specialists that are good at automating operations surround the key developers.

[0] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SurgicalTeam

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#106

Post by dnyce » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 5:41 PM UTC

I love this article and couldn't agree with it's central premise more. I can think of no other industry that demands an individual wear as many brain intensive hats as that of the developer today. These jobs which used to be distributed are quickly becoming the baseline for how an individual applicant is judged. I for one believe that if we focus, we can become a true master of skill AND compile that with understanding of the "whole stack" but never being forced to maintain more than our fair share of that stack.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#107

Post by area51org » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 5:41 PM UTC

copergi wrote: post #91

NickPollard wrote: post #18

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

The problem is there's as many ideas of what "devops" means as there are people saying "devops". The concept of devops as you just described it makes absolutely no sense to me for example. Operations has always been about automation. CFengine has been around for a long time. So to me, your version of devops just seems like a fad buzzword applied to the same old same old.

Better automation than cfengine, with any luck. But in most companies, Operations does not mean automation; that's the very reason the DevOps movement started.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#108

Post by fauigerzigerk » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 5:41 PM UTC

>Large companies love this, as it means they can hire far fewer people to do the same amount of work.

But they cost much more as well. Following that logic, it would be in the interest of hospitals to make "full-stack-doctors" clean toilets.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#109

Post by markbnj » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 5:42 PM UTC

As a developer of course it's tempting to agree with the author's hierarchy. Masters of the IT world! But really it's over-simplified. As a dev with many years of experience there's no part of the stack I can't work in and figure out what I need to do. But that doesn't replace actual operational experience and oversight. You make do in startup or small team because you have to, so I guess ultimately I agree with the piece.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#110

Post by headShrinker » Tue, Apr 15, 2014, 5:46 PM UTC

Because of an abnormal learning style, severely dyslexic, I have never fit in to corporate environments. Looking past the egregious spelling errors, being a slow learner isn't a winning talent in a job interview. As a result, I've fallen in to the trap of full stack (jack of all trades) developer consultant for a little over a decade now. I never got very good at anything in particular. Thus, I have battled with burn out for many years now, and am passively seeking another careers outside of Internet technologies. Point of the article is close to home.

The burnout aside, there is a plus to someone being proficient at many related tasks; having a somewhat in-depth knowledge of how all these technologies come together. The point is not all jobs require the best, most expert techniques. As in the case of the jack-of-all-trades carpenter, as long as he knows when to call the specialist, he is still getting the jobs, as am I.