Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#101

Post by kenrikm » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 8:14 PM UTC

Edmond wrote: post #32

I hope people don't forget the profit motive of Mr Musk. It seems technology entrepreneurs have adopted the rhetoric of "just trying to make the world a better place" while conveniently ignoring their own profit making motives. I am no friend of car dealers but I am also not going to be suckered by a self-serving sales pitch. While I don't necessarily support the NJ move, I think we should start asking questions abou…

Elon made enough off PayPal to never have to work.. ever again . Instead he put all of his money into Electric cars, solar power and rockets with a huge chance that he would loose it all (and almost did). I don't think that profit is his motivating factor.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#102

Post by stcredzero » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 8:15 PM UTC

ssmoot wrote: post #79

peeters wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the distribution mechanism in itself affect the quality? It's just a way of getting new software on the car. You can have the exact same standards of quality for an update installed over the air as one installed at a service centre.

Except at a service center there's presumably the opportunity to replace the firmware chip or board if they brick it during the update whereas a bad OTA update leaves you little option. OTOH I'd risk a bad OTA update 1% of the time if it meant avoiding the service center the other 99% of the time. And I'm sure a bad update is just a call and a tow away from a fix at a Tesla service center. Unless you're on a road-tri…

With the march of Moore's Law, it should currently be feasible for automobile controllers to actually run under a kind of hypervisor and keep a copy of the old system so that it can roll back. (Including by request of the owner.)

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#103

Post by larrys » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 8:15 PM UTC

jusben1369 wrote: post #29

Musk is massively disingenuous and rather insulting to our intelligence. But he's a heck of a salesman and makes a wonderful car. Like many persuasive people he arrives at an answer and backs into rationale but makes it appear the other way around. I'll give you just one example. The law of the land in NJ is that you can't sell in NJ unless through a dealership. That's the current law. Those laws need to change to al…

"Musk is massively disingenuous and rather insulting to our intelligence. But he's a heck of a salesman "

Agree. And makes you wonder a bit about the marketing materials surrounding these cars, huh?

He's trying to make as if he's acting in the best interest of the people of the state of NJ. When it is very clear that his motivation is his own interests and selling his car. And making more money for himself. Most businesses don't make it that obvious.

Another word I will use is immature. His argument sounds like a spoiled kid who doesn't get what he wants and is going to call out the teacher at school hoping to berate them into just caving in. [1] Real life doesn't work that way. Not to mention the fact that there simply aren't enough people in NJ [2] that care about buying a Tesla to protest and make change on this.

[1] "Hey great argument no I don't mind if you insulted me because you are right!".

[2] Guess what? In Pennsylvania there are many more people that don't want to buy liquor at state stores (which they have to) and that hasn't changed yet.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#104

Post by strlen » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 8:15 PM UTC

sheetjs wrote: post #31

> the auto dealer franchise laws were originally put in place for a just cause and are now being twisted to an unjust purpose ... and Christie can argue that allowing Tesla creates a slippery slope whereby Ford and GM and other companies end up crushing the franchisees that the law intended to protect. Musk is trying to find a middle ground that just doesn't exist unless you accept governments creating one-off laws t…

There is no slippery slope here if the law is states something like: "contracts between existing de-facto oligarchy of car manufacturers and dealers remain as is, new entrants are free to set their own terms".

Everyone is talking about how we can't trust Elon Musk since he is acting in his rational self-interest. Yet why should we assume that Christie is acting out of the pure goodness of the heart? Politicians too act in their self-interest and that kind of self-interest often involves maximization of power. The currency of politics is not just cash (that helps too, of course!), but also favours: you can be sure that in return for this favour, he'll ask something from the dealership industry which would beneficial to his political career (e.g., the first thing that pops would be to accept additional vehicle taxes, which would help Christie carry and receive donations from environmentally conscious voters in a liberal state susceptible to flooding)

(Edit: remove an incorrect assertion. Laws regarding specific individuals are constitutional, just not "bills of attainder")

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#105

Post by Zancarius » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 8:16 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #77

nlh wrote: post #24

His best line: > The rationale given for the regulation change that requires auto companies to sell through dealers is that it ensures 'consumer protection'. If you believe this, Gov. Christie has a bridge closure he wants to sell you! Unless they are referring to the mafia version of 'protection', this is obviously untrue. Nicely done, Elon. Nicely done.

Although personally satisfying for the writer, that is a pretty good example of something never to write in a letter that you want to positively influence a situation. Referring to a scandal by a politician when lobbying isn't really going to work, and all letters addresses "to the people" are lobbying.

I gather from the suggestion at the end that the only option available to Tesla is through the court system, so it probably doesn't matter what he writes about the governor. If the only remedy is legal, you've lost political lobbying as an option. Save for votes, but the midterms are still 8 months away. Voters are forgetful.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#106

Post by assholesRppl2 » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 8:16 PM UTC

ssmoot wrote: post #70

skore wrote: post #10

> An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service, but electric cars require much less service than gasoline cars. There are no oil, spark plug or fuel filter changes, no tune-ups and no smog checks needed for an electric car. Also, all Tesla Model S vehicles are capable of over-the-air updates to upgrade the software, just like your phone or computer, so no v…

Tesla's site is a bit frustrating. I get most of those same benefits driving a Nissan Leaf. So I'm not really interested in a "true cost" comparison to a gas vehicle I wouldn't be buying anyways. Turns out the Model S at $1,466 as optioned is more expensive than a Leaf. :) Not that I wouldn't kill for a 300 mile range...

do you realize how much money you could make from networking opportunities that arise from driving around a Tesla? invest in your future

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#107

Post by mncolinlee » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 8:16 PM UTC

Having bought a Nissan LEAF, I can say with confidence that traditional auto dealers are where electric vehicles go unsold. Numerous members of our electric auto owners group share the same exact stories.

You go to the dealer specifically asking for an electric car and the salesman tries to make you change your mind to another vehicle. Considering the bonus structure at most dealerships, there is no incentive to sell an electric vehicle.

First, the dealership may choose not to participate in selling electric models at all.

Second, there is usually only one or two people allowed to sell an electric vehicle because your salesperson was not trained. Who wants to lose a customer and a bonus to another salesman?

Third, it takes longer to sell an electric vehicle because you have to explain everything that gas car owners already take for granted. You make less money by spending more time. This also leads most salesmen to push for 10% over MSRP, harming sales.

Finally, some very corrupt dealers go so far as to deliberately discharge their vehicles and leave them that way so they won't have to try selling them. Dealers have little incentive to sell the entire lineup of manufacturer vehicles if they have to train and hire more sales staff for one model. Some dealership owners may even may be politically opposed to the idea of electric vehicles.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#108

Post by rst » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 8:16 PM UTC

peeters wrote: post #35

smacktoward wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a terrific salespitch, especially in how it raises the subject of OTA updates while adroitly waltzing you past the obvious worry that a poorly tested OTA update will brick your car.

How does the distribution mechanism in itself affect the quality? It's just a way of getting new software on the car. You can have the exact same standards of quality for an update installed over the air as one installed at a service centre.

For one thing, an OTA update mechanism is obviously more subject to third-party spoofing than an update delivered by physical ethernet from the dealership.

(BTW, do Teslas apply OTA updates while the car is underway, or store them up for application when parked? If the former, then applying even a correct update to a car in motion could have all sorts of nasty consequences if it resulted in a sudden change to, say, response characteristics of the suspension or brakes.)

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#109

Post by maxerickson » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 8:16 PM UTC

larrys wrote: post #84

"An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service, but electric cars require much less service than gasoline cars. There are no oil, spark plug or fuel filter changes, no tune-ups and no smog checks needed for an electric car." Well then what about BMW with bumper to bumper service as only one example. That's a high end car that you don't pay for service for (i…

You don't see any difference between not needing some types of service and building some types of service into the price?

Wiper blades are what, $30 a year if you really care about them?

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#110

Post by easymovet » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 8:16 PM UTC

npizzolato wrote: post #67

easymovet wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets keep the discussion positive. Understand I'm not a political science major or a fancy debater, I don't claim to poses more than average intellegence, I'm just asking a question, hoping someone with more knowledge on the matter has an answer. After working to provide for the family I don't have a lot of free time to commit to politics if that's what you mean by 'participate more actively', is that the only course…

Do you contact your congressman, local government, or other representative body about how you want them to vote on any particular law? They're a phone call away.

That's a good idea. I've written a few letters before, but never felt like I had the skill set to argue about these points on the phone, I'm also an introvert so cold calling is not something that I choose to do very often.