Zuckerberg Expresses Frustration Over Surveillance • Hacker News Board

Re: Zuckerberg Expresses Frustration Over Surveillance

#101

Post by ton2lavega » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 9:40 AM UTC

aaron-lebo wrote: post #44

droopybuns wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only we lived in a democracy rather than a constitutional republic.

Hey now, if you are going to be pedantic make sure you get your facts straight. If I'm remembering right, prior to James Madison's writings, there wasn't a real distinction between democracy and republic, besides the fact that democracy was Greek and republic was Latin. Madison in the Federalist Papers made the distinction between democracy and republic that are your talking about, but it is pretty arbitrary. Now you…

No, the distinction between democracy and republic was well established before Madison. It appears in James Harrington's works. It also appears in works of Montesquieu, Rousseau, Tocqueville, and even Aristotle. I could find the precise quotes of their works to support my point, but I'm not at home. If you're into this kind of stuff, I recommend Bernard Manin's The Principles of Representative Government. Sounds boring but it's actually a great book.

Re: Zuckerberg Expresses Frustration Over Surveillance

#102

Post by aaron-lebo » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 3:48 PM UTC

ton2lavega wrote: post #101

aaron-lebo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey now, if you are going to be pedantic make sure you get your facts straight. If I'm remembering right, prior to James Madison's writings, there wasn't a real distinction between democracy and republic, besides the fact that democracy was Greek and republic was Latin. Madison in the Federalist Papers made the distinction between democracy and republic that are your talking about, but it is pretty arbitrary. Now you…

No, the distinction between democracy and republic was well established before Madison. It appears in James Harrington's works. It also appears in works of Montesquieu, Rousseau, Tocqueville, and even Aristotle. I could find the precise quotes of their works to support my point, but I'm not at home. If you're into this kind of stuff, I recommend Bernard Manin's The Principles of Representative Government. Sounds bori…

Thanks for your response.

I had a feeling I was going of faulty memory myself. I will certainly find out about that book.

Re: Zuckerberg Expresses Frustration Over Surveillance

#103

Post by ta_fbp » Fri, Mar 14, 2014, 4:34 PM UTC

johnnyg wrote: post #55

Zikes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure listening to everyone equally is the definition of democracy.

One person, one vote does not mean equal influence per citizen. I think "listen" deals in influence where as yes, one vote per citizen deals with democracy.

In a democracy one person, one vote do mean equal influence per citizen, as in a democracy people decides policy.

The USA is not a democracy, it is a republic, a system where people vote for a small number of representatives who then decides policy in the name of the people.

Nowadays these two words have shifted in meaning in popular usage, what used to be democracy is now called direct democracy and what used to be a distinct republic is now indirect democracy or representative democracy a.k.a. democracy. This kind of slippery semantics is most probably a consequence of years of propaganda to persuade people they live in a democracy so they won't ask for one.

Then again, in the USA as many other places around the world, this small number of elected representatives holding the power of policy are subjected to the oligarchic / plutocratic power and influence of a few wealthy entities.

Or as better said in this quote:

«the 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.»