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1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

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Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#101
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, the Inquisition was bad. But so was the gulag. Seems like the 'tempered by compassion' thing is more important than the left hand side, doesn't it? There is absolutely no historical connection between religion and war. From http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/06/god_and_the... "Moreover, the chief complaint against religion -- that it is history's prime instigator of intergroup conflict -- does not wi…

> There is absolutely no historical connection between religion and war. Absolutely false -- you have grossly overstated your claim and even contradicted your own sources. You have posted statistics that say either 7% or 40% (depending on source) of wars are caused by religion, and then blithely made a claim that contradicts your own evidence. If your claim were true, having religious beliefs would produce a reductio…

Wow, an article on religious violence goes over religious violence. Who would have guessed?

7% of all wars in history have been religiously motivated (note, that is not by body count: if we went that way the atheistic russian and Chinese civil wars plus nationalist world wars would make them a round-off error.)

Do some religious people commit violence? Yep. So do some environmentalists. Is the problem environmentalism? So do socialists. Is the problem socialism?

I get it: HackerNews commenters generally don't like religion, mainly on first-principle and emotional grounds. But there is no reason, logically, to exaggerate the dangers of religion, nor to deny the observable benefits.

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#102
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much wrong with this comment I don't even know where to begin. It will suffice to say that this is a huge conceptual muddle, and a great example of where conceptual confusion can lead us if we are not careful. You are confusing 'discovery' with 'giving new definitions', 'reality' with 'a mathematical model that describes...', physics with everyday language, and you also seems to be unaware of what 'orbit'…

> It should be clear that it can never be the case that by using a new mathematical model we can come to the conclusion that "the earth is standing still". Apart from the OP's many outright errors, this one suffers from the defect that it assumes there is only one possible frame of reference. One can obviously choose a frame of reference in which the earth is motionless, but relativity denies any special significance…

Which is exactly the point. Whether the earth rotates depends on your frame of reference. You can pick one where it is, you can pick one where it isn't. Neither is "true". So saying the earth orbits the sun is a choice : it is not a true or false statement, just a statement reflecting an opinion. Occam's razor (as well as general mathematical practice) dictates that we declare this to be not true in that case (note the massive difference between "not true" and "false". Not true means you don't know it to be true AND you don't know it to be false either). But this is only possible in euclidean space, you have to transform space (change the normal/distance function) before you can choose a reference frame where there is rotation.

If you look at it in the original relative space, without an euclidean transformation, there's only 2 ways to see it : you can only pick reference frames where the earth is standing still entirely, or you pick reference frames where it is moving along a straight line. You cannot pick a reference frame in relativistic space that shows ellipsoid movement (like the one predicted by the Newtonian theory which is generally what people mean by "orbit").

So you can't actually pick reference frames to do whatever you want. In order to get something looking like an orbit you have to pick a reference frame where you not only have messed with the point of origin, but also projected the distances between objects to be invariant under the influence of gravity. Which they're not in reality (effectively you're claiming that distances everywhere in the universe are as they are at an earth-sun lagrange point, which is not true). Only by doing that transformation can you get an orbital pattern.

At that point, from a purely mathematical point of view you can analyze what other motions you could get that are equally true as saying it orbits. So you can say, you can put the origin point anywhere you like, moving, accelerating, whatever you want. In addition to that you can arbitrarily change the distance function. So you could make one where the earth spirals into the sun. Or spirals away from it (simply introduce a time component in the distance function). Hell, you could make one where the earth and the moon look like they're bouncing on the surface of the sun that looks like the disc in the discworld (put origin at the center of the sun, distance function is a the normal multiplied by the tangent of an angle that goes from the center of the sun to where the moon was 48 hours ago, and in the z direction all distances are zero). Hell, I bet that even if you demanded the reference frame be euclidean you could still make it look pretty silly (I think my spiraling examples would still be euclidean). Reasons for picking one over the other ? None.

Well, one : if you want to calculate the influence of the laws of physics inside our solar system, having an euclidean reference frame centered on the sun-planets lagrange point (which is not the center of the sun) is pretty useful, as it means you need 11 (number of planets) transformations to calculate the path of a satellite moving through the solar system, whereas a relativistic reference frame would require 12 transformations (imho because they don't change rotation they're simpler though).

Aside from the utilitarian choice, all those statements are simply equally true to saying that "the earth rotates around the sun". Just because we prefer one arbitrary kind of reference frame above others here on earth (ie. euclidean) doesn't make it any more real.

And yes, compared to objects "near infinity" the earth arrives at the same spot once a year, but that doesn't make it's path any less straight.

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#103
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have any evidence for this? The history of religion? The Inquisition, as just one example among many? Being absolutely sure that God is on your side is a powerful drug. > There has been plenty of atheistic terrorism in the last hundred years ... Yes, but it can't compare to the well-established historical connection between religion and war. One example -- try to imagine recent Indian history without the eff…

9/11 was an attack mostly fueled by Saudi Arabians pissed off by US involvement in the Middle East in general and in Saudi Arabia in particular. Blaming it on Islam is missing the point.

Wasn't a major reason they were pissed off by the US presence in Saudi Arabia that some very major holy sites of their religion are there (such as Mecca), and they objected to having infidels near such sites?

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#104

While true, the actual data presents a different picture: http://i.imgur.com/FXMlOZB.png [source: http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind14/content/chapter-7/c07.... ] So actually, the U.S. had the second highest score on that question, behind South Korea. Furthermore, the U.S. consistently performed on par or higher vs. the other countries/regions for the remaining questions. The real outlier for the U.S. on this survey…

Does that mean around 1 out of 2 Americans doesn't believe in evolution? That's scary.

The form of evolution I was taught in school was strictly wrong. It's not hard to see why anyone would reject the principle outright.

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#105
post #102
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should be clear that it can never be the case that by using a new mathematical model we can come to the conclusion that "the earth is standing still". Apart from the OP's many outright errors, this one suffers from the defect that it assumes there is only one possible frame of reference. One can obviously choose a frame of reference in which the earth is motionless, but relativity denies any special significance…

Which is exactly the point. Whether the earth rotates depends on your frame of reference. You can pick one where it is, you can pick one where it isn't. Neither is "true". So saying the earth orbits the sun is a choice : it is not a true or false statement, just a statement reflecting an opinion. Occam's razor (as well as general mathematical practice) dictates that we declare this to be not true in that case (note t…

> "Occam's razor ... dictates that we declare this to be not true"

Note that Occam's razor does not actually have the authority to dictate anything. Occam's razor is a useful heuristic -- like frames of reference, you may treat it (or various similar heuristics) as true, but may also treat it as not true.

----

This whole exchange reminds me of one of my favorite Asimov essays, The Relativity of Wrong [0]. You can certainly make the argument that the reference frame "the earth goes around the sun" is not true, but it's less not-true than "the sun goes around the earth". "The earth goes around the sun" is a correct assessment of the relative behavior of the bodies in a reference frame which is in a sense arbitrary, while "the sun goes around the earth" is an incorrect assessment of the relative behavior of those bodies under either Euclidian or relativistic reference frames.

[0] http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#106

I simply refuse to believe that. The notion that a quarter of the people supposed to vote in the ruler of the most powerful nation can't wrap their head around the most basic of scientific facts is too depressing to contemplate.

Note that the USA scored better than most of the rest of the world in this and several other basic science questions. The actual result is "humans aren't well-educated"; it's being cynically spun as "Americans are stupid."

I'm not sure that makes me much happier.

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#108

While true, the actual data presents a different picture: http://i.imgur.com/FXMlOZB.png [source: http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind14/content/chapter-7/c07.... ] So actually, the U.S. had the second highest score on that question, behind South Korea. Furthermore, the U.S. consistently performed on par or higher vs. the other countries/regions for the remaining questions. The real outlier for the U.S. on this survey…

Where the percentage correct is significantly below 50%, it seems like there are very widespread myths being accepted, possibly dangerously. Malaysia scored 8% and Russia scored 18% on the second to last question (Antibiotics kill viruses as well as bacteria) - that's scary to me from a public health standpoint.

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#109
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is absolutely no historical connection between religion and war. Absolutely false -- you have grossly overstated your claim and even contradicted your own sources. You have posted statistics that say either 7% or 40% (depending on source) of wars are caused by religion, and then blithely made a claim that contradicts your own evidence. If your claim were true, having religious beliefs would produce a reductio…

Wow, an article on religious violence goes over religious violence. Who would have guessed? 7% of all wars in history have been religiously motivated (note, that is not by body count: if we went that way the atheistic russian and Chinese civil wars plus nationalist world wars would make them a round-off error.) Do some religious people commit violence? Yep. So do some environmentalists. Is the problem environmentalis…

> 7% of all wars in history have been religiously motivated

You're picking data to suit your beliefs. Another of your own sources said the number was 40%. In any case, this contradicts your prior claim that: "There is absolutely no historical connection between religion and war." That's quite false, however you cut it.

> Do some religious people commit violence? Yep. So do some environmentalists.

You're moving the goal posts and posing an absurd argument -- not unlike the child molester who says, "So? Who's perfect?"

> But there is no reason, logically, to exaggerate the dangers of religion, nor to deny the observable benefits.

I can't possibly exaggerate the dangers of religion in a country that (because of religious belief) rejects science and critical thinking, murders health workers, and tries to force Creationism into public school classrooms as though it's science.

And what benefits did you have in mind? A way to control the behavior of people who aren't very smart and need to have their hand held as they cross the busy street of life?

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

Quote: "In a 2013 meta-analysis, led by Professor Miron Zuckerman, of 63 scientific studies about IQ and religiosity, a negative relation between intelligence and religiosity was found in 53 out of 63 ..."

Re: 1 in 4 Americans Don't Know Earth Orbits the Sun. Yes, Really.

#110
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have any evidence for this? The history of religion? The Inquisition, as just one example among many? Being absolutely sure that God is on your side is a powerful drug. > There has been plenty of atheistic terrorism in the last hundred years ... Yes, but it can't compare to the well-established historical connection between religion and war. One example -- try to imagine recent Indian history without the eff…

9/11 was an attack mostly fueled by Saudi Arabians pissed off by US involvement in the Middle East in general and in Saudi Arabia in particular. Blaming it on Islam is missing the point.

> Blaming it on Islam is missing the point.

I didn't blame it on Islam, I attributed it to religious extremism, something the vast majority of Muslims reject. That attribution is absolutely correct and supported by an unbiased analysis of the events.

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