The NSA didn't break the law. People at the NSA broke the law. They need to be held to account.
Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
101–110 of 133 posts
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ok let's say they have some evidence that is sufficient to create reasonable suspicion, but probably insufficient to secure a conviction. Why would it be wrong for the FBI, under the supervision of a court order, to tap this person's phone to see if he is the killer? Keep in mind this is not a broad NSA dragnet here. This would be a targeted wiretap driven by probable cause and governed by the federal rules of eviden…
"under the supervision of a court order" A court order is not a warrant. This is the heart of the discussion you are trying to get into. The 4th amendment is very clear: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and partic…
A search warrant is a particular type of court order; a subpoena is another. As far as I know, there isn't really any overlap: search warrants authorize law enforcement to conduct searches, subject to fourth amendment restrictions; subpoenas compel parties to deliver documents or testimony, subject to fifth amendment restrictions.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
They're not committing crimes against the American people. Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program. Without harm, there no criminal act. That said, something can be unlawful without being criminal.
The Palmer raids in the early 1900s arrested more than 10,000 people. Of that, 3,500 of them were held indefinitely. Almost all of them were innocent people. In the wake of the 9/11 attacks, 1,200 Muslims were arrested. Some were beaten (this is according to the Justice Department's own Inspector General of the time). Hundreds were held for months. Absolutely none of them were found to be with al-Qaeda. These are jus…
Wow, I didn't know about the Palmer Raids. Thanks!
"In June 1919, Attorney General Palmer told the House Appropriations Committee that all evidence promised that radicals would 'on a certain day...rise up and destroy the government at one fell swoop.'
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
And because of how fucked-up the system is, when they come to pick you up, any number of minor things during that encounter ("Fuck you pig, where's the warrant?", running, etc.) can escalate into resisting arrest, disturbing the peace, or assaulting an officer, and then magically you're in the system "for real" and screwed.
Probably shouldn't be telling cops to fuck off then?
I use the hyperbolic case because it should still be allowed--even a kinder "I'm sorry, but I can't leave with you until you've got a warrant" can trigger a "Are you resisting? taze taze taze" event, as we've seen elsewhere. There is no assurance, no safety net, no hope in the system for common sense--and that's before you even take into account informal departmental policies (HPD: "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.", Denver PD: "We get up early to beat the crowds").
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
There wouldn't be cartel hitmen if the thing wasn't illegal and hence profitable. I have an issue with letting them listen--especially if I'm on the other end of the phone, for example, taking their order for pizza or arranging a playdate for my kids or something. It's the few-hops-away rule that is very easily justifiable that creates surveillance states.
If you unknowingly were setting up a playdate for your kids with a hitman, I think you'd have a vested interest in having the guy exposed and brought to justice.
As long as he hasn't hurt me or mine, what's it matter?
That same logic puts the friends of drone operators in a strange place, right? They kill civilians too.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
Probably shouldn't be telling cops to fuck off then?
I use the hyperbolic case because it should still be allowed--even a kinder "I'm sorry, but I can't leave with you until you've got a warrant" can trigger a "Are you resisting? taze taze taze " event, as we've seen elsewhere. There is no assurance, no safety net, no hope in the system for common sense--and that's before you even take into account informal departmental policies (HPD: "You can beat the rap, but you can…
Sure there are cases of abusing their power, this is normal for any industry, doesn't mean it is the norm.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
Probably shouldn't be telling cops to fuck off then?
1st amendment says otherwise.
You are free to talk shit to anyone you want in a bar; you are also free to get your ass kicked.
Antagonizing a cop just to be a dick will probably result in those minor charges he would have ignored if you were nice, getting written up with a smile on his face. That's 100% your fault in that case.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
I use the hyperbolic case because it should still be allowed--even a kinder "I'm sorry, but I can't leave with you until you've got a warrant" can trigger a "Are you resisting? taze taze taze " event, as we've seen elsewhere. There is no assurance, no safety net, no hope in the system for common sense--and that's before you even take into account informal departmental policies (HPD: "You can beat the rap, but you can…
Sure there are cases of abusing their power, this is normal for any industry, doesn't mean it is the norm.
Very few industries are capable of as thoroughly ruining somebody's life as an abuse of power by cops--especially since they are given carte blanche to do so.
We have to look at the worst-case outcomes and make our safeguards against them; anything else is inviting disaster.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
1st amendment says otherwise.
You are free to talk shit to anyone you want in a bar; you are also free to get your ass kicked. Antagonizing a cop just to be a dick will probably result in those minor charges he would have ignored if you were nice, getting written up with a smile on his face. That's 100% your fault in that case.
The guy in the bar isn't bound by law and ethics to be professional and respect the constitution. The cop is.
Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, it makes sense that she'd say that since she's one of the two that rejected that the program is illegal. I've been reading Tim Weiner's Enemies, a history of the FBI and one thing stuck with me. That was that there was a period of time when the FBI was incredibly useless because of a previous Supreme Court ruling that wiretapping was illegal and then FBI agents all began to misunderstand what they could and cou…
several terrorists that could have been caught slipped by. To what effect? Was it really that big a deal?
It really was. At least once, known al-Qaeda terrorists did a trial run prior to 9/11. And for a month up to the day before 9/11, Agent Samit was desperately trying to stop Moussaoui by getting a warrant to search his laptop, but a breakdown in communication at the FBI let Moussaoui pretty much get away with it. Then we all know what happened 9/11.
This really presents an interesting problem, I think. Reading the effect of secret government surveillance from the past century, it's hard to not believe that that surveillance won't be abused. It's been abused in so many other countries and so often in this country (where we hold ourselves in such high regard). At the same time, the power to terrify and commit mass murder has become much easier as technology advances. So what to do?