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Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

reuters.com

101–110 of 144 posts

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#101
While it's a good opportunity to take a political jab at the US, the F-18 was never a contender.

Both the Rafale and Gripen are much better choices. The Gripen especially, it's probably the best performing plane per dollar in the world - and has a lot of advantages besides sheer performance...

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#102
post #94

This is sickening. I live in Canada, and this directly affects a friend's family of mine considerably. Both my friend and his father are full time factory workers at a company called "Goodrich". They machine landing gear primarily for Boeing jets. This means less available-overtime at the very least (which many of the workers rely on), and possibly lost wage increases in the future. Who knows.

I sympathize with you, but Boeing never had a chance if one goes purely by cost: benefit comparisons. The only way they could have won this is if they lobbied enough for the Brazilians to look past the significant shortcomings of the Boeing aircraft. And I think even then their lack of cooperation when it comes to transfer of technology and offsets would have sabotaged the deal. Brazil already has a very reliable civ…

Distrust is a very strong motivation to reject a bid. If Boeing had won the bid, the NSA would have armed themselves with a FISA court order, mandating Boeing to install malware in the fighter jets, along with a gag order forbidden Boeing to tell Brazil. Due to their massive internal audit problem, the one or the other rogue NSA contractor would end up selling off a copy of the specifications describing the backdoor to crime syndicates, who would then be able to blackmail the Brazilian government. To cut a long story short, it has now become impossible to buy any American technology product which contains proprietary software or hardware. It must now all be open source and open design and then reviewed by non-American experts at the expense of the American company trying to sell its gear.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#103
post #82

Whatever Brazil loses in capability, Rouseff gets back in her relations with her neighbors. I guarantee there's isn't a head of state in South America that hasn't sent her an 'ataboy. Brazil even further establishes itself as the country that matters in South America. That's worth 36 planes that will never fire a shot in anger anyway...

The Gripen NG does not appear to be any less capable than the Super Hornet, with the exception of being single-engined as opposed to dual-engined.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#105
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn't forget the illegal spying happens against American citizens in American soil. I suppose the NSA's charter includes spying on Brazil and they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they weren't spying on us. Much like we probably try to intercept every communication for of foreign diplomatic missions in Brazilian soil.

That's why Obama has his secret conversations inside his tent of secrets. (Not just in Brazil, but the picture of him in the tent happens to be from Brazil.) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12810675

Never heard of the tent before, interesting - but why doesn't it cover the floor? I was assuming it was some kind of faraday cage, but the lack of floor covering is a bit weird...

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#106
post #5

Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. While there's evidence that Boeing's chances were hurt by the NSA revelations, it's not true that Boeing was a clear favourite. Both Saab and Dassault had presented strong bids and were considered serious contenders, particularly as both offered much higher industrial participation and technology sharing than Boeing and…

People need to realize that companies like Boeing, GE, etc. are hardly even viewed as "American" overseas. We (Americans) like to think they are, but these companies are decidedly multinational with huge operations in many, many countries that employ thousands. They also make lots, if not the majority, of their revenue in non-US markets. Their headquarters may be in the US (not always), but they could easily migrate…

Boeing are certainly regarded as a 100% US company in Europe.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Gripen can land on a relatively short stretch of road, a team of six can get it ready for its next flight and it can take off from the same road. The F22 is not a STOL aircraft. Given standard NATO practice of taking out the radar and the runways in the first few femto-seconds of a 'war', I think this feature makes the Gripen worthy of consideration. That said, do features really matter in the arms trade?

> That said, do features really matter in the arms trade? I dunno. Will the next serious war use planes at all? Or something smaller (I bet on smaller, for air and water)? Anyway, Brazilian fighters are modeled to beat a defensive war against Venezuela. I guess the F22 is not the best fighter to use over the Amazon florest (but I don't know muh).

For water, the most cost effective is submarines, and has been submarines since before WWII. Big ships are an expensive way of giving the enemy some target practice.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#108
post #5

Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. While there's evidence that Boeing's chances were hurt by the NSA revelations, it's not true that Boeing was a clear favourite. Both Saab and Dassault had presented strong bids and were considered serious contenders, particularly as both offered much higher industrial participation and technology sharing than Boeing and…

That is a nice theory and all, but I must ask, is it more than that?

We got the comments from each party privileged to the private deals each company made. We can cut away the commentary of the article, and still be left with a finger pointing at NSA. At that point, we can either trust that they speak the truth, or think they are lying.

> lower operating cost than the Rafale or Super Hornet, Saab has agreed to transfer a massive amount of technology and Sweden has committed to investigate a quid pro quo acquisition of Brazilian KC-390 tanker transports

Was that a new offer on the table, or has it been there several years? What causes the negotiations to continue for years, and what caused the negotiations to stop now? Those are the question I am left with after reading parent comment in the light of the article.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#109
post #74
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Apple. (ducks)

Apple has had a renaissance lately. I believe they are more of a world company based in Cali.

What does 'having a renaissance' have to do with whether they are American or not? If anything, they are becoming more 'American' with their high-PR plans to build stuff in the USA. Their products all have 'designed in California' etched on them. They are, and they want to be, American.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#110
post #8

The French bid was turned down by the President herself after major set backs in the current France-Brazil partnership building a nuclear submarine for the Brazilian Navy. Not mentioned here is the fact that old conspiracy theories surrounding the explosion that destroyed the Alcantara launch pad and killed the cream of the crop of the Brazilian space program, have recently been resurrected and it's believed plausibl…

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