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#101
post #64
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it punishment? He's not under any kind of duress.

Perhaps punishment was too strong. But it was a forfeit on a bet, and the implication of having to dress up as one of the female cabin crew as a forfeit is distasteful at best, however innocent the intention.

So, by that same token, is not being forced to give cash as a result of losing a bet distasteful and disrespectful of the poor?

Shall we all go through a committee to get pre-approval before taking any action to ensure that it offends no one? At what point does the lone last misogynist become our Harrison Bergeron?

Re: Page not found

#102

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. H…

Thank you.

It's 'funny' because a man wearing makeup and a skirt is something you're supposed to find ridiculous. Meanwhile, a woman wearing masculine attire isn't funny.

I'm a trans woman. People I've never met before make it their business to come up to me in public and make dehumanizing statements. Or threaten my life. My friends have been beaten up for not satisfying gender roles. I lost one friend to suicide, and my lover was hospitalized after his attempt. All because this society is so fixated on making their lives unlivable because of their gender presentation.

This 404 page is part of the culture that feeds into this. The double standard between women dressing masculine, and men dressing feminine, speaks to a greater underlying prejudice.

Re: Page not found

#103

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. H…

>Why is it so hard to try to understand someone when they feel offended, instead of telling them they are being hypersensitive?

It might be hard for you to imagine, but some people are, in fact, hypersensitive. Some people make a hobby out of finding things offensive; society should generally laugh at these people and ignore them.

That being said, there are also plenty of situations where someone can be legitimately offended by something.

>1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead.

This is just plain silly. Textbook hypersensitivity. Anyone who would be offended for this reason is an idiot.

>2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. However, "body image distress" is real and it even drives people to suicide [1]. Violence against transgender people is very common as well. Homosexuality used to be listed as mental disorders in DSM I and II, but was removed in 1974. "Gender identity disorder" was finally removed in DSM V last year [2]. In august, a 21 year-old transgendered woman was beaten to death in New York, to just mention one of the many victims of hate crimes against these people.

This one, on the other hand, makes a little more sense. That being said, people still shouldn't care when other people make fun of the things they like doing in a generalized way.

Re: Page not found

#104
post #102

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. H…

Thank you. It's 'funny' because a man wearing makeup and a skirt is something you're supposed to find ridiculous. Meanwhile, a woman wearing masculine attire isn't funny. I'm a trans woman. People I've never met before make it their business to come up to me in public and make dehumanizing statements. Or threaten my life. My friends have been beaten up for not satisfying gender roles. I lost one friend to suicide, an…

> This 404 page is part of the culture that feeds into this.

The 404 page is a picture of a guy with makeup on and wearing a dress. This could be a picture of a transwoman, or a gay man in drag; would it still be feeding into a culture of transphobia? How could you tell without knowing the context of the picture?

If you know Richard Branson, you know he is a straight cisman. So him dressing in drag becomes confusing. Why could he be doing this? Is it wrong for him to dress in drag for any reason at all? Are there some acceptable reasons why a straight cisman can dress in drag? If so, what are those reasons, and who gets to decide?

You might say that people who would get offended by him would be the ones to make this decision. For example, black people get to decide that white people can't say the N word and that they can't dress in blackface, because it's offensive to them. And we all accept that.

--

But why would someone dress up in blackface, or say the N word? Would it be to make fun of black people? Perhaps someone wants to appropriate a culture different than theirs, or re-enact some historical figure. Or perhaps they're just racist.

And why would a straight cisman dress up as a woman? Is it to make some point about gender inequality, or to show solidarity with transwomen, or to re-enact some popular historical figure/singer? Maybe they found it thrilling to challenge their own and others' expectations of their own gender expression? Or are they just sexist/misogynist or transphobic?

--

You have experienced discrimination because people don't like who you are. It's not your gender presentation they hate, because these men (i'm betting it's all men) like females that present female. What they hate is the confusing and uncomfortable feeling of something they can't understand. It challenges their idea of what a woman is.

They are attracted to ciswomen, and everything in their head tells them they should never be attracted to males. So when a male dresses as a woman, it creates a conflict they can't resolve. So they lash out in order to resolve their internal conflict; it proves to themselves that they don't actually find a male attractive. This is of course part of the basis for transphobia/cissexism.

And so what should we do to fix this? Should we make solid lines where cisfolk can not deviate from their expected gender norms, and transfolk can not deviate from their expected norms, and force everyone to accept people in only their preferred gender presentation? Should we prevent anyone from ridiculing anyone else, or perhaps just prevent the majority from ridiculing the minority? What's fair, and what's acceptable, and who gets to decide?

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Perhaps there's a better way. Perhaps we can educate people to understand their fellow human being. Perhaps we can educate people to understand themselves. And where does this education happen? In the schools? At work? In the streets? At home?

Really, we need it all. We all need to help each other learn. We need to help people understand that how someone dresses or who they like doesn't affect anyone but them; that they're doing no harm, and should be allowed to live their lives however they want, regardless of what you think of it or them.

The gay community is really starting to get there now that gay marriage is becoming more popular. Hopefully in my generation, politicians will no longer be ashamed to be gay, and will come out and proudly support their country as gay elected representatives. And then hopefully transpeople, queer, neutrois, etc will do the same.

It's a long, difficult, uphill slog through our cultural and emotional baggage until we get there. I don't think shaming someone for dressing in drag is going to push us up that hill. But continuing to tell your story, and continuing to educate people, will inch us closer. I say we should all become more educated, and educate each other, and be compassionate and empathetic even to those that would rather hate than appreciate. Because I think the only thing that's going to create positive change is positive action.

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Thank you for being yourself, and being courageous, and getting through our shitshow of a culture. Thank you for making a small difference towards helping other people like yourself - one day - no longer be victims of this kind of abuse.

Re: Page not found

#105
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. It's 'funny' because a man wearing makeup and a skirt is something you're supposed to find ridiculous. Meanwhile, a woman wearing masculine attire isn't funny. I'm a trans woman. People I've never met before make it their business to come up to me in public and make dehumanizing statements. Or threaten my life. My friends have been beaten up for not satisfying gender roles. I lost one friend to suicide, an…

> This 404 page is part of the culture that feeds into this. The 404 page is a picture of a guy with makeup on and wearing a dress. This could be a picture of a transwoman, or a gay man in drag; would it still be feeding into a culture of transphobia? How could you tell without knowing the context of the picture? If you know Richard Branson, you know he is a straight cisman. So him dressing in drag becomes confusing.…

This might be useful for others who had no idea what cis meant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

Re: Page not found

#106
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This 404 page is part of the culture that feeds into this. The 404 page is a picture of a guy with makeup on and wearing a dress. This could be a picture of a transwoman, or a gay man in drag; would it still be feeding into a culture of transphobia? How could you tell without knowing the context of the picture? If you know Richard Branson, you know he is a straight cisman. So him dressing in drag becomes confusing.…

This might be useful for others who had no idea what cis meant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

Yep. Important to know if you ever find yourself in a dark alley cornered by a gang of radical genderqueers. You're lucky if you get out of there with just a shaved head and confusing-looking clothes.

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#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up? Your post demonstrates that you have no firm opinion on the matter and that you are "covering all the bases" as opposed to saying something meaningful based on your personal experience. I lived with someone who tried to commit suicide and suffered from deep depression. Laughter was the one thing that helped. It's pretty clear that RB is having…

Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up? Now that is offensive. He even provided a linked reference FFS. Being alienated from your own physical body is not "playing dress up." Transgender people don't put on the clothes of the other gender for fun. You're thinking of transvestites, who are (sort of) doing it for kicks. Very different thing.

I believe you have misunderstood your parent comment. The question "Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up?" asks whether suicide can be caused by Richard Branson playing dress up.

The question does not appear to confuse "transgender" and "transvestite", nor does it use "playing dress up" to refer to either.

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#108

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. H…

I don't see this as inflammatory or offensive. However, I do have a separate problem. It reads like a rebuttal, but has no parent comment. It makes me feel like you're speaking to a comment no one made. Derail complete.

I agree, I don't often feel I need to stick my oar in with type of thing, but I wish I had enough karma to down vote this from being the top comment. It is a first class derailment.

I really don't see what the parent can take as offensive.

Men have been dressing up as over-exaggerated caricatures of women for years (going back to Shakespeare and beyond), it's called pantomime. Women do the same and men don't get upset. Maybe it's a UK thing that doesn't translate well to other cultures.

This is being "offended" for the sake of being offended.

Re: Page not found

#109

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. H…

> 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women.

Bollocks, I know more male cabin crew than I do women cabin crew. You're the one typecasting flight attendants as being women. In fact many most of the recent flights in the UK I've flown on have an equal number of male/female cabin crew and...shock horror....cockpit crew.

This being top post on HN is truly fucking shameful. A bunch of made up offence about a CEO who painted his face when he lost a bet. Please, go get a life and a sense of humour.

>Disclaimer: I'm comparing misogyny to racism and transphobia to homophobia. Apples and oranges. This is a bit offensive, too. My intention is not to say that they are the same, but to try to draw parallels between attitudes that most people find wrong, and attitudes that are generally accepted. Why is it okay to make fun of asians?

Who is making fun of asians? Where the fuck did that come from?

Sorry my friend, you are way off the pathway with these assumptions and veiled accusations.

It's a joke. Get a fucking sense of humour.

ps: ever heard of pantomime? Women dress as men, men dress as women.

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#110
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humour has no barriers. And it shouldn't have. We joke about death. We joke about illness. We joke about disabilities. We joke about just everything. Laughter and humour is what separates us from monkeys. Let the monkeys be politically correct. We'll have a good laugh in the meantime. The fact that you feel offended is the itself the result of misogyny. If the world were misogyny-free, there would be no offense impli…

The 'humour has no barriers' thing is dependent on that humour working . This just seems tone-deaf.

For any kind of humour,it won't ressonate with a segment of the population. This does not invalidate the argument.
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