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A culture of beer and overtime

jayhuang.org

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Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#101

Post by jayhuang »

tempestn wrote: post #99

Was anyone else reminded of this? http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/magazine/dave-eggers-ficti... "Denise’s smile was pained. “But then there’s your absence at most of the weekend and evening events, all of which are of course totally optional, and your corresponding PartiRank, which is surprisingly low for a newbie." "Optional" beer party anyone?

Funny you should mention that article, this blog post has been on my mind for a long time, but I never got around to it[1].

Part of the reason I finally wrote it and posted it on HN was because of seeing that article a while back.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6673385

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#102

Post by jayhuang »

laughfactory wrote: post #72

Dude, I feel ya. And thanks for sharing. I'm not (yet) a developer (though that is my long game), but I have run into similar situations in data science. I had an idiot boss (boss of my immediate boss) who sat around all day with his feet on his desk, staring off into space, but demanded that we all work 60-ish hours a week. And this was at a bank, where the standard was 40 and they made a lot of noise about their su…

Thank you for sharing your story too!

Your story seems quite similar to mine. I still get chills down my spine thinking about it. But it was a great learning experience, now I know with my experience, and with the valuable input I've received on HN, I will be much better equipped to deal with similar situations in the future.

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#103

Post by jacalata »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #98
weixiyen wrote: post #89

At one of my first jobs, I resigned after about a year because I found a job that offered 2x as much in terms of salary. Director: "How much is the new place offering? We can match." I told him the number. Immediately his tone changed, and said I should take the other offer. I wanted to give a 2 week notice, which I thought was the norm, but he asked me to leave immediately and use up my remaining days as vacation da…

How do they save money? If you use your 2 weeks of vacation, they send you a check for 2 weeks pay at the end. The exact same thing would happen if you cashed out your vacation days, albeit with slightly different paperwork.

No. He offered to work two weeks, which would have meant they owed him two weeks of pay plus two weeks of vacation days. Instead he took two weeks of vacation pay and no pay for work.

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#104

Post by tempestn »

jayhuang wrote: post #101
tempestn wrote: post #99

Was anyone else reminded of this? http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/magazine/dave-eggers-ficti... "Denise’s smile was pained. “But then there’s your absence at most of the weekend and evening events, all of which are of course totally optional, and your corresponding PartiRank, which is surprisingly low for a newbie." "Optional" beer party anyone?

Funny you should mention that article, this blog post has been on my mind for a long time, but I never got around to it[1]. Part of the reason I finally wrote it and posted it on HN was because of seeing that article a while back. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6673385

Ya, the LinkedIn stuff was spookily similar too. You were living in the (dystopian) future!

"On Friday, you find out that your dad’s O.K. But the rest of the weekend, you basically go blank. You logged into your profile only three times, and nothing was updated. It’s like you disappeared!"

BTW: if you haven't chosen a new gig yet, or you're still freelancing as well, feel free - or encouraged - to fire me an email (in my profile). We're based just over here in Victoria, but do the 100% remote thing.

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#105

Post by eru »

zobzu wrote: post #52
coffeemug wrote: post #17

Wow. I'm a founder of a tech company, and the thought of checking someone's LinkedIn profile or old website to verify degree of commitment would never even occur to me. The fact that someone would not only think of it, but actually act on it is absolutely mind-boggling. I've seen new managers do silly things, but this is seriously new.

i would totally check on the linkedin status if i thought the employe is going to leave - if anything's private then i won't be able to see it anyway, but certainly not act on it.

Why would you spend your time at work looking at information you cannot and will not act on?

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#106

Post by jayhuang »

tempestn wrote: post #104
jayhuang wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you should mention that article, this blog post has been on my mind for a long time, but I never got around to it[1]. Part of the reason I finally wrote it and posted it on HN was because of seeing that article a while back. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6673385

Ya, the LinkedIn stuff was spookily similar too. You were living in the (dystopian) future! "On Friday, you find out that your dad’s O.K. But the rest of the weekend, you basically go blank. You logged into your profile only three times, and nothing was updated. It’s like you disappeared!" BTW: if you haven't chosen a new gig yet, or you're still freelancing as well, feel free - or encouraged - to fire me an email (i…

Sent!

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#107

Post by jayhuang »

coffeemug wrote: post #48
bigiain wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question, or at least food for thought: How are you instilling that attitude in your company? How big would your company need to grow before misguided middle management might be appointed who _does_ think this is an appropriate management technique, resulting in this happening on your watch with you later described as a "detached executive"? Having stuff like this "never even occur to you" leaves you in the p…

This is a good point. I've never managed more than 15 people so I can only speculate, but it seems that the proverbial fish rots from the head (I'm sure I'll learn many painful lessons when it's time to grow). The startup described by the OP is smaller than our company, and they already have this problem. If we were large enough to need middle management, I would be absolutely paranoid about hiring good people that u…

Well I guess I never mentioned it in my post as that would make it very easy for my old employer to be named, but there are around ~50 people in the company, although they tout themselves as a startup (and pay like one too).

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#108

Post by kamaal »

>>“I’m not saying you should be working 80 hours a week, but 70 is not ridiculous to ask, and if you were committed you would do more”.

From when did working 30+ additional extra hours just became a sign of being merely committed? The way I see these are just mind games played to extract tons of work for free.

I see this pretty standard these days. The Google 20% time policy is a standard in many companies to get free innovation out, while your grinding your bones to dust(sold to you as 'chasing your passion' , 'developers like to code during late night and weekends', 'world changing problems' etc) working whole nights to get some thing done, a VP some where is sleeping through his job. What happens at the end of it is the VP gets a fat bonus and a promotion for 'driving the innovation' while you are at the very best known to be just 'committed' and given a certification, which isn't even worth the paper its printed on.

Almost any time you hear some senior guy glorifying long working hours, demanding free innovation and depicting heroic contribution as just doing bare minimum job. Know one thing for sure, this guy is going to leech you till the last drop of blood in your body.

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#109

Post by kubiiii »

Some managers are unable to assess employees efficiency, so they measure working time and are only happy when everyone is working 70 + hours per week. They also measure commitment by how hard you laugh at their jokes. Even though it is infinitely more precious to have someone productive working around 40 hrs a week (i.e. with around 30 extra potential hours to work when there is a rush) who finds critical software vulnerabilities like you did. Their loss.

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#110

Post by eru »

throwmeaway2525 wrote: post #19
cbryan wrote: post #11

What are good questions to ask during an interview to avoid situations like these? How are other people weeding out employers like this one? This sounds like a bad situation that I'm sure we'd all like to avoid.

I don't think there's a sure-fire way to know, but you can ask upfront (even in the initial communications by email or phone) if it's a new position, or a "backfill." And during the phone or in-person interview you can ask questions about team dynamics, like who you report to and are working with, how long the interviewer has been working there and how they like it, etc., to try to get a sense for how things work. An…

Abouth the `backfill': you can also ask about length of average stay at the company.
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